Kelly Lamb's Journey – From Addiction to Ibogaine, Bufo, and a New Life

Kelly: Okay. Today we are interviewing Kelly Lamb. Kelly Lamb is a Buffo facilitator and she also is a Buffo trainer. She owns the Church of the Amphibian Arts. So Kelly, today we're interviewing you and about your medicine journey. Now, when we interview people on this show, and you're the first, you know, a lot of these start with entire life stories, which I don't want to get into your entire life story, but I want to go with any guest, basically, to the point or that defining or pivotal moment that led you to the medicines.

Jason: Now, your story is a unique one, and your story is one that kinda scares the shit out of every parent in America because, well, we'll get into it. But you know a little bit about your background. You grew up in Creed, Colorado, which what's the population of Creed? The year round residents of Creed is like three or 400, three or 400 people. So not many. No. How many people were in your high school class? There was eight in my graduating class. And you graduated as a valedictorian? Yes. Yeah. And then you went to college and you ended up getting two bachelor's degree and a master's degree in Yeah. I went to Adams State University in Alamosa, Colorado, which is, it's, it's also a small town, obviously bigger than Creed, but it's, it's close to Creed. It's only like an 80 minute drive. And um, I went to undergrad school there. I got a bachelor's in finance and a bachelor's in accounting. And, you know, I

Jason: was good at school, you know, not just in high school. I even had a 4.0 in undergrad. And then after, uh, I finished my degree, I went to University of Denver. And weirdly oddly enough, I got a master's in taxation, which is obviously way different than what I do now. And I also, I mean another part of my, a big part of my story that we won't necessarily get into too is that I ran cross country at Adams State University, which is a division, a very competitive division two college. And, um, in between cross country, indoor track and outdoor track, I was a seven time all American. Yeah, so you're a higher, you are a high achiever and honestly, by societal measures, you kind of look like you are on the fast track to success, yeah, I guess that would be accurate to say. So you finished college and then where did life take you? So after I finished an or graduate school at University

Jason: of Denver you know, the pe people that know me through our training know that, you know, I'm quite a a shy person. And even, even after high school, even going to Adams State, it was comfortable for me because it was close to Creed. And, you know, even going to du like being that far away, from my home, especially because Creed and the history of my family in this area is important to me. And so yeah, I feel like through my adult life I went through phases of, getting outside of my comfort zone and, you know, DU was a part of that. But after. Uh, you know, I lived in Colorado my whole life, but after graduating from University of Denver, I moved to Miami with my then partner, which, you know, is a very big change for me because I never, um, you know, never lived outside of Colorado. And, um, yeah, like, it was definitely outside of my comfort zone, especially coming from a

Jason: small town, being a shy person, you know, having self-doubt all the things. So after Du I moved to Miami with my then partner, um, which was a, an Italian guy. Part of the reason why we moved down there is because his brother was opening up a restaurant and he was helping him with that. And, um, yeah, moving to Miami, like I said, was, uh, outside of my comfort zone. But yeah and. I don't remember. And, and you and you worked in Miami? Yeah, I worked at the restaurant that my partner at the time and his brother opened up. I worked there when I first moved to Miami. You know, I've worked in the restaurant field a lot, like living in Creed and it being a touristy spot, restaurant work was a, a big part of, you know, just the work that I did. But then after a few months, I started at a accounting firm called Deloitte, which, you know, if you're familiar with accounting,

Jason: Deloitte is one of like, what's considered the big four accounting firms. So were you at CPAI was I never, I did the requirements to be a CPA, I passed the CPA exam when I lived in Miami. Um, and you know, obviously did all the schooling in order to get it, but I never applied for my license because. I don't know. I just knew pretty quick after working at Deloitte that it just, I just knew it wasn't something I wanted to do long term. That's pretty quick understanding, right? Outta college. Yeah, no, it did. It didn't take long. And I mean, I, I would say, you know, because I always have been a high achiever, like, you know, always had good grades in high school, was an athlete in high school and college I guess you would say I followed the path of what you're supposed to do in order to be a successful person. So yeah, you know, working at Deloitte after going to DU

Jason: that was, you know, my version of doing what you're supposed to do. You know, everybody says after college you can get a good job and, you know, society's definitions of what a good job is versus, you know, someone like me is obviously very different. So I could tell, I don't know, I just didn't want to spend my life, doing tax seasons and working 80 plus hours a week during tax season and you know, kind of living in a way, I mean, kind of how society, the rest of society thinks of successful. But I mean, even the Miami lifestyle of making a lot of money and sacrificing your work life balance in order to have status and make money, I just knew that that wasn't the path for me. And yeah, so I worked at Deloitte for just over a year and, you know, after, you know, working there for a year, I could tell that this isn't something, you know, I wanted to do long

Jason: term. Like even though it's society's view of a good job, for me it wasn't a view of a good job because, just because of how many hours people worked, like people would almost brag about working 80, 90 hours a week and spending their whole time in the office. There wasn't enough of work life balance and, uh. Just aliveness, so what came after Deloitte? What ca you know, following Living in Miami up until the point that we are now was really kind of in a way, the beginning of my journey because, um, you know, I actually really enjoyed living in Miami. 'cause it, you know, even though it was outside of my comfort zone, I enjoyed, you know, living in a place entirely different from Creed and just seeing a different way of living, a different part of the world. But that's kind of that, like I said, in a way, it was indirectly kind of the beginning of my journey as far as the medicine

Jason: path because, like the person that I dated before I met you. He struggled off and on with opiate addiction most of his life. And, uh, he moved to Miami when he was young. Like he, he was quite a bit older than me, 20 years older than me. Now when you say opiate pills, heroin, both? Meth? I don't know exactly the specifics. Like, I mean, he, like when he lived in Italy, he struggled with, you know, I guess street heroin and yeah, like I said, he struggled with opiate addiction off and on his whole life and especially, you know, being very naive to the world, not living outside of Colorado, not really branching out a ton outside of Crete, except what I was comfortable with at the time. Like now I understand a lot more about addiction, but you know, thinking back now, there was signs back then in Miami that he was kind of struggling and going back into opiate addiction. To kind of, I

Jason: like, I'll circle back to that, but you know, my introduction into the medicine world was, um, using ibogaine, which is a West African psychedelic, shrub used to repair the brain from opiate abuse. Iboga is used for other things besides just addiction and healing from opiate abuse. But again, that's how I got into the medicine world is by needing something like Ibogaine. But yeah, circling back to, to Miami, that's kind of how I even got into opiate, opiate abuse because you know, like I said, I didn't see the signs of him struggling with opiate abuse in Miami until I eventually started catching on. And, you know, that's how I first kind of learned about addiction, was kind of helping him. Through, I guess his own process in Miami. And, you know, I learned a lot about, you know, methadone clinics, rehabs, how, you know, people, basically just how addiction is, is treated and, you know, through helping him from, for several months, going down various paths

Jason: such as methadone rehabs, detoxes, things like that. You know, I even though I didn't understand addiction and, you know, most certainly didn't understand it, like, you know, for myself going through addiction at the time you know, I just learned a lot about the industry and just in a way, kind of like how the current model doesn't really work. The methadone, you know, it, it works in a way as, as in you're given such a strong, long lasting opiate, which is what methadone is, that you maybe don't have cravings for street heroin. But, you know, I learned that it wasn't, I guess true healing. I mean, it, it, some people do feel like it works for them, but I could tell. From helping him in his path that it wasn't true healing because it was still a constant struggle. It was still, he was, he was essentially addicted to the methadone because you, it's not like you can't take it if that's the route you go.

Jason: Correct. Yes, exactly. You know, after kind of going down those paths and them not really working, you know, Miami wasn't necessarily a good environment for him, you know, we ended up moving back to Creed and, but yeah, like the end part of, in Miami is kind of how I started to get into opiate addiction because, you know, we had, you know, like I had so much love for him that it was super sad to see how much addiction could take people down. And like I said, I was very naive to the whole thing and the power of it. Um. 'Cause sometimes people ask me like, you know, how did you get into opiate addiction? 'cause I tell people, I'm not Your typical what, who, who you would think of as, it's not like you were just a lost sold. Yeah, no, or it's not. Or it's not like I struggled with drug addiction throughout my teenage years or early twenties. It was something that was

Jason: completely foreign to me. So, like I said, I learned a lot about it through helping him, but it still didn't give me an understanding of, you know, like I said, the power of it. Because like I said, we had a romantic, happy relationship and I felt like I completely lost him. So it was heartbreaking to me and very difficult to understand. So did you feel like there was a curiosity pulling you towards it? Yeah. Kind of a curiosity. I mean, it's not like, you know, you. Especially with my background of being an athlete, a good student, it's not like you're like wanting to go into opiate addiction. It was kind of a curiosity because I wanted to understand, so I dabbled, you know, with using opiates, AKA heroin in Miami, you know, just because it was the start of me trying to want to understand. I didn't use it regularly enough to be addicted at the time when we lived in Miami. Um, but yeah,

Jason: after, you know, kind of helping him through his process with methadone and the detox clinics and the rehabs, we, you know, came to the decision that it, it just wasn't going to work in Miami. So we had to move back to Creed. And oddly enough too, you know, 'cause Creed's a small town, sometimes people, when they hear that my addiction journey is in Creed, you know, it seems odd to them. 'cause Creed is such a beautiful place. It's a small town. Where, you know, sometimes people may think that, you know, drug addiction isn't even a problem, but you know, addiction, whether it's through alcoholism or drugs, can also be a huge problem in small towns as well. But it wasn't until we moved back to Creed that, you know, I guess I really got into it. And yeah, a big part of it was curiosity 'cause I wanted to understand my partner. But you know, of course there, there's been other factors that I've processed

Jason: throughout the years that maybe contributed to it. You know, especially because I followed society's standards of what, considered the path of what you're supposed to do. Go to college, get a good job, X, Y, z, all that. You know, I feel like I was a little bit depressed moving back to Creed, because even though Creed is an amazing place, and I wouldn't rather live anywhere else now in ways, not necessarily internal, but more from societal idea of like, you know, doing the path you're supposed to do, I, in a way, I kind of felt like I failed. And it was also stressful, especially being naive to it all, dealing with somebody that I loved and cared for about that was struggling with opiate addiction. And I had a cousin that also, um, lived in Creed. She was kind of back and forth between Creed and the Denver area. She, she struggled with opiate addiction big time and it. Like I said, it's, it's, yeah, in

Jason: between, you know, my, my partner at the time, my cousin and myself, we kind of, you know, I guess dabbled in opiate addiction and like I said, there was other factors other than just wanting to understand, like I said, feeling like a failure, feeling a little bit depressed, being back in Creed and you know, also not really fully knowing my place in my family, you know? 'cause my family's lived in Creed since 1886. So your family was here before Creed was here? Yeah. My family, you know, was in Creed before Creed was even in town. So, you know, obviously my family has a lot of family history and heritage here. And I always had an internal knowing like everybody else in my family lives and works at the ranch and the ranch is hugely important to my family about, you know, carrying on that legacy. 'cause it, it feels very important to all of us. But I always had an internal knowing, even though that's

Jason: always been important to me to help them. I always had an internal knowing that I would do something else besides that. I just didn't know what it was, but I had a deep internal knowing that I would help my family and do, but do something else more than that. That is, I guess, my purpose. I just didn't know what it was at the time and nor, and I sure as hell didn't know that addiction was gonna help me get there. Okay, so, so yeah, like I said, some of it was curiosity, some of it was, kind of feeling like I failed by societal standards, by being back in Creed and also not really knowing my place in my family. You know, like I said, I've processed various factors other than the curiosity about how I got into addiction. So in between my prior partner and my cousin, you know, we all kind, I mean, my prior partner was kind of already addicted to opiates when

Jason: we left Miami. You know, he just had Suboxone to make it through. But I knew that you know, he would start going into withdrawals as soon as he was off Suboxone because Suboxone is also a long lasting opiate, like methadone, just in a different form. So yeah, like. So how, how are y'all using heroin? Were you smoking, were you using it intravenously? Did it kind of, would you graduate from one way of using it to another? I mean, when I dabbled with it in Miami, it was in a white powder form, you know, which, uh, is generally, I would say what people think of when they think of street heroin. But weirdly in Colorado, I don't know if it if it's still like this now 'cause I haven't, you know, been addicted to heroin for almost eight years now. But when it was difficult, when we moved to Creed. Because they didn't have the white powder form available to us. A lot of what was

Jason: available in Colorado is known as black tar heroin that comes from Mexico versus the white powder that I think comes from Afghanistan or something like that. And this one's more kind of harsh on the lungs, right? It was very harsh on the lungs. Like my cousin would smoke it and I don't know, like for both me and my partner, anytime we smoked it, we didn't get, I don't know, it, it just wasn't, it was hard on the lungs and it wasn't potent. So I used to always say I would never use it intravenously. But also because black tar heroin, you're not capable of snorting it really because it's, you know, a sticky tar. Mm-hmm. Um, I ended up very quickly actually going to intravenous use, which was a pretty, you know, drastic jump I guess. So was there a point when, because in Miami you said you dabbled, but when you got to Creed, was there a point. That you were like, okay, now I

Jason: understand what addiction is. Yeah, yeah. Like I said, or you knew you were in it. Yeah, like, like I said, when I first came back you know, I wasn't addicted to heroin, even though I dabbled in it when we lived in Miami, but it didn't, it, you know, opiates grab onto you pretty quick. It doesn't take long of using it on a regular basis for it to kind of sink its hook hooks in your brain and make you want to crave it and use it more. Um, and what, and what does that feel like?

Jason: It just kind of feels like you're not in complete control. Like there's some energetic thing hijacking your brain. But yeah, like, like I said, I wasn't necessarily planning on getting into opiate addiction, but you know, in between my, my cousin and my partner at the time, you know, we were kind of all using recreationally and yeah, I noticed after two weeks, like of kind of, you know, doing that pretty much every day that it's. Hooks were starting to sink into my brain. And I probably, you know, consciously had that thought and probably could have stopped then and been been okay. But there was, I don't know, there, there was also a weird pull into it to, I guess, like I said, a couple of the reasons, but also curiosity and really diving deep into understanding addiction. But like I said, once I was addicted, I was like, yeah, this, this is tough. Like it's, it's hard. So it didn't take long for me to understand

Jason: how difficult it is now, which was hard for me, especially because I've always thought of myself as a very strong person, a very strong-willed. And just kind of like you said in the beginning, you know, my family's been here forever. Everybody in Creed knows knows who I am for. So for, so for someone like me, valedictorian of my class. Good athlete. Like it was kind of scary for the people of Creed to see someone like me get pulled into it and get pulled into it pretty strong. And that's why I say your story scares the hell out of every parent in the country because if it can happen to Kelly Lamb, it can happen to anyone. You know, it's common for when someone gets deep into an opiate addiction. They'll often, that, that seems to be the primary drug, but it's, uh.

Jason: I guess for lack of a, of a better term, o opiates are heavy. So that they'll often use uppers as pick me up. Did you find yourself getting into other addictions or narcotics? I, I did eventually. I mean, I wasn't addicted to, I mean, I wasn't really addicted to drugs for that long of a time, even though it was very, the addiction I had, I would say it was intense. It just wasn't very long. But, you know, the summer we came back like, you know, for pretty much the whole first, I don't know, eight to 12 months, it was just opiates and, you know, obviously heroin and opiates is, you know, it can, it can be a gnarly addiction. But I found being addicted to opiates is weirdly, in a way easier to maintain than like an upper addiction like crack, which I did eventually get into. For pretty much the whole first eight to 10 months of me getting into addiction, it was just

Jason: opiates. And like I said, it was easier to maintain it just being opiates. Once I added crack to the mix, I went downhill very quickly. So what was that first hit of crack? The like, and part of how I got into it too, you know, as a partner I was with at the time, like even though for the first eight to 10 months I only used opiates he used, uh, I mean, and I didn't, I didn't know anything about crack addiction either, like. You know, even though addiction is, any addiction is kind of the same realm, but, you know, obviously each addiction to whatever drug or pharmaceutical substance is a little bit different. So, you know, I noticed that, um, you know, he would kind of casually smoke crack at night. And like I said, I, I never really felt intrigued or got into it at that point. Like, um, I just, you know, stayed on the opiate addiction. But the first time I tried

Jason: it, it was the beginning of the summer. I can't remember, I think it was 2018. 'cause that was the end of the, that summer we met. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I was only smoking crack for, I don't know, two to three months. It wasn't long, but like I said, it made my decline much worse. And the, the, the, the first time I smoked it, I didn't fully get it because like I said, you know, I was never super experimental with drugs other than getting into this addiction. And I was used to heroin. So the first hit, I actually didn't really get it, but after smoking it a couple more times, it, you know, if opiates don't take long to sink, its hooks and your brain cracks as hell. Don't take long to sink. Its hooks. But yeah, it's, it, I don't know. It's, it's hard to describe crack addiction. Like is it fun? Yeah. At least in the beginning. I mean, any addiction is more

Jason: fun in the beginning. Mm-hmm. But yes, crack. I, I've heard crack, you know, when I've seen people e even recovered addicts when they talk about crack, like their eyes almost get wide and remembering what that was like. Yeah. And that's very real. Like even when I talk about crack to this day, like of course I would never condone crack, you know, smoking crack. Like obviously it's not good for you. It's a horribly addictive drug that's designed to pretty much wreck people. And it does it quickly. It does it quickly. And you know, I mean. Crack, you know, is similar to cocaine. It's just cocaine on crack. Yeah.

Jason: But yeah, like exactly what you're saying. When like people talk about it, they get excited and like I said, I would never condone it, but like, yeah, crack can be a lot of fun. Like, part of the reason why I liked it and in, in a way it actually helped me find iga because I don't know. It, it, it, you know, it's an upper, it can make you just, it, I mean obviously it can kind of make you paranoid because it can make you think and process a lot. And sometimes through thinking and processing a lot, some of that's paranoia. But you know, one thing that I liked about it was, I, it sounds weird, but you could read a lot and that's actually how I found I began. And again, kids we're not condoning crack. We're definitely not just telling Kelly's story, but before, before we get to that.

Jason: And, and you know, that's the interesting thing about crack is I've, I've worked with a lot of people coming out of addiction from, from heroin, from crack. I've asked them, you know, going home, are you worried about falling into the addiction following iboga? And they always say no to heroin, crack. I'm a little concerned. Yeah. So was there a point like this defining moment in all of this where you're like, I gotta get out, I gotta figure this out. I, I have got to get out of this somehow. Yeah. Yeah. And definitely like, and adding crack to the mix, I feel like made that process happen quicker. So even though it kind of sucked getting on it because it made my decline pretty quick it was also a good thing 'cause it made me find my bottom faster and it made me realize like, wow, you really have to figure this out. And like, you know, when I was just using opiates, like it's a

Jason: very common I guess for lack of a better term, like symptom when you're in addiction to kind of have denial. At some point I thought like, you know, well maybe I just like to use heroin and I can maintain this my whole life, but after a couple months of crack, it's like, there is no way I'm going to be able to maintain this. And if I don't figure this out you know, I'm either gonna die or I always knew I wouldn't live my life like that for the rest of my life. Mm-hmm. But I knew I had to figure it out. Did you think it would be possible, or were you concerned that this was lifelong? I mean, I, I, I was, I, like I said, I always thought of myself as a strong mental, mental person. So like I was surprised that I couldn't quit opiates on my own. No, I always had hope. I always knew I could figure it out. So you

Jason: came to the point where, okay, we need to get out of this thing. Now, usually at this point, this is when people are considering traditional rehabs, 12 step programs, methadone or Suboxone or some of these supporting pharmaceuticals. But you didn't even entertain that. Correct? Yeah. But a big reason why I didn't entertain that is because through my prior partner watching his process and ju I I, I just knew that, you know, like I said, I don't want to, you know, however anybody gets clean is, is, is amazing. Like, you know, some people do get clean from rehab even though it's, it's, you know, the percentage isn't very high. Or from aa, you know, some people like, you know, I don't wanna say. Mean, we're not saying it doesn't work for other people. Yeah, but you knew it was them. I just knew it wasn't my path, especially because I saw how much it didn't work for my prior partner. So yeah, like even though I

Jason: knew I had to figure my shit out, and like I said, the decline in crack going quickly was actually beneficial because I knew I had to figure things out. And also being in Creed too, because like I said, everybody knew me. Like I'm, even now, like I'm a thin, lean person, but I mean, I was like 45 pounds less than than I am now. Like where it was very obvious to the point where I couldn't hide it from my, I obviously couldn't hide it from people in Creed, from my family, particularly my mom who did the most on trying to help me figure it out. But I knew I had to figure it out and I knew I couldn't hide it from myself or have denial about it anymore. And you know, even though I knew I, you know, I didn't want to do the traditional rehab or methadone or anything like that. You know, occasionally I would look up, you know, some things online

Jason: and, you know, call different detoxes in the area because you know, I also had a lot of shame and judgment to myself, like, which I'm sure many addicts do when they're, you know, in the middle of addiction that I wasn't sure how much my family was going to help me. And I've kind of always been a, figure out everything yourself type of person. But, you know, I would call and talk to, you know, sometimes detox and rehabs and I, every time I, and I mean, this is how in denial I was, I would call and ask them, you know, saying My, my boyfriend needs help when re in reality, we both really help. Asking for a friend. Yeah, asking for a friend. But still in those calls, I just knew like, this, this isn't what I want, want to do. And I didn't really, I didn't really know. Yeah, like I, you know, 'cause like I said, like, you know, I was completely new to

Jason: the drug world. Like up until I started using heroin, I didn't even smoke weed. And you, you'd never heard of plant medicines or really knew much about psychedelics at all up until this point? No, I really didn't know anything about psychedelics. I mean, obviously everybody's heard of magic mushrooms and stuff like that. I don't even think I had heard of ayahuasca. I didn't even know plant medicine was an option. So, you know, it's So you literally skipped all the easy stuff and jumped right into the deep end of heroin and crack as your first introduction. Yeah, exactly. Like I said, to the arena of narcotics. Yeah. Like I said, I didn't even smoke weed before that, so, you know, or really drink. But yeah, so I didn't really know where to start looking, you know, all I knew is like kind of what your, I guess your average person would know, like methadone, suboxone, detox, rehab. Those were really the only options that I did

Jason: know of. And I really, because I didn't know much about psychedelics and even the, the healing power of them, I didn't really even, seek that out necessarily. 'cause I didn't even know it was an option to help me. So again, I didn't know exactly where to start, where to look. But oddly enough, you know, like I said, my favorite thing about crack as it could make you, it made you able to read so much. So, you know, I also worked when I was addicted to heroin, I worked a lot of hours. You know, I helped my family at the ranch and me and my partner both worked at a restaurant and, you know, I worked a lot because obviously it cost a lot of money to, you know, buy two people crack and heroin for daily use. How much were you spending a day? I mean, we both used about a hundred dollars in heroin and, um, probably shared about a hundred dollars of crack

Jason: a day. So it was 300 in between the two of us. And I mean, every day. Every day. And you would drive how far to get it? We would drive an hour. 'cause you know, creed's a small town, so we'd have to go down to the valley into a different town that was closer to us to even pick up. So, you know, in between working a lot and spending so much time driving down there to go drive. And were you driving daily or every other day, or weekly? It was pretty much daily. I mean, it, it, at first it was only every two to three days, but it got to the point where it was pretty much daily. And then let's say you went without,

Jason: here's, tell us about opiate withdrawals or crack withdrawal or all, what would you experience if you went too long without getting your quote unquote fix? Yeah, like, like, I mean, especially when you're working a lot and you're, and you're addicted to opiates, like you can't afford to not have go into withdrawals, you know, because you won't be able to function. So with opiates, you always have to have opiates, so you don't go into withdrawals. Like uppers. I don't know about meth 'cause I, I've never used meth, but like even as far as crack you know, I guess you could have some types of withdrawals that are kind of more mentally, but opiates are the one that you have to have physical. Yeah. Otherwise you're not going to be able to go to work starting opiate withdrawals. Can you describe a little bit about what that feels like? I mean,

Jason: like the, I mean there's different stages of it, but the, I've often heard people, I just want to say I wanted to crawl out of my skin. Yes. Like once you get like two or three days into opiate withdrawals, you just have extreme fatigue, extreme discomfort where you're kind of always res situating yourself, body chills, body aches. Feel sick. Yeah. You almost feel nauseous. Some, some people can like throw up. I don't think I ever throw it up from opiate withdrawals, but you just. It is almost like it, it's an extreme flu, like a really extreme flu that goes on. I mean, for everybody, it's different from the worst. The first week is the worst. Second and third week are better, but still hard. But it's a flu that you know how to end immediately. That's the hardest thing about it is, you know, if you have the flu, you can't really do anything but ride it out. But with opiates, you know, it's really

Jason: hard when you're starting to feel that bad, knowing there's something that'll make you feel better. And you know, also, like, like I said, like heroin sinks, its hooks into your brain where it's harder to override that thing. You wanna be mentally strong and just keep going, but there's a constant thing gnawing at your brain like, Hey, you know, go pick up heroin again. You'll feel better. This will, you know, everything will be okay. But as far as like crack, I like, like I said. I did, did you ever get into, as they call it, carpet farming where you're on the ground with the flashlight trying to find any little bit of rock you can? Yes. Yeah. And I mean, I if for people that aren't familiar with what carpet farming is like it's, you know, a common term for people. I, you know, I think it's common for meth too, but particularly crack because it's so short acting that you can literally smoke a gram

Jason: of crack in between two people in a couple hours. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, like when you get towards the end of your crack, like, like it's, that's what makes this addiction so ridiculous is you'll literally be on the floor looking at the carpet with a flashlight, trying to find crumbs, and you'll end up like smoking a. Like a piece of dirt or something. But even though I didn't, I wouldn't say I had withdrawals from crack anytime. We didn't have it. Like we made sure to always have heroin. I, I was more okay with like, you know, if, if as long as we had heroin we could wait to pick up crack, you know, if, if it was just a day or so. And like I said, I didn't have much withdrawals from that, but the partner I was with on at the time, like especially deeper into the diction, like we had to have both every day. But like I said, I didn't really suffer

Jason: major withdrawals from crack. I mean obviously whenever we did go get it, I was very excited. But yeah. Okay, so now, and then, so you're, so as you're saying correct. It is almost like Adderall keeps you up. It helps you read, it helps you focus. Definitely not a substitute for Adderall kids. We're just making a comparison, but you have told me you kinda use the addiction of crack to help you find the cure for your addiction to crack and heroin. Yes. Yeah. But yeah, like I said, it's um, because I worked so much and we spent so much time going to pick up, and that's one thing that people don't know about addiction is you spend a lot of time driving to go get drugs waiting for your dealer. So in between working so much and spending so much time doing that, I didn't have a, a ton of time, so I would always stay up late smoking crack and doing research on basically how

Jason: to. Get my way out of this. And like I said earlier, I didn't exactly know any of any options other than the traditional means. So I didn't even know where to start. But oddly enough, I started researching into traditional Chinese medicine. I don't know what called me to research that, but I went down, you know, various paths and rabbit holes and you know, I probably, you know, researched. I don't know, for a good month, you know, four to six weeks before I actually went and did Ibogaine. But yeah, weirdly enough, TCM was where I started the research. I didn't ne I, you know, I found some herbs and stuff in TCM that sounded like they could be somewhat helpful, but they were more like a lot of the natural stuff or, you know, various avenues I saw to help you. They were more like herbs and supplements that helped you get through withdrawals, not exactly helped you heal an opiate addiction. Mm-hmm. So, you know,

Jason: and even though those natural substances, like if you do have to go through opiate withdrawals on yourself, they're great to have. 'cause they can be somewhat beneficial. I mean, they're not gonna take away complete withdrawals because, but also just getting through withdrawals on the other side of withdrawals doesn't mean we've healed the addiction. There's still a exactly like I knew, like I still knew that there was more like, even though like I was glad that I had those leads to, you know, have hope about, I knew there was more than that. Like I wanted to heal the addiction and I wanted my brain to go back to normal before I had had ever even used opiates and, you know, the various avenues I went down and researched, like I weirdly kept coming to Iboga and you know, I like, you know, sometimes I would see like lists of like top 10 whatever treatments or plants used for addiction. And a lot of times Iboga weirdly

Jason: wasn't on the top of those lists, mostly because of its accessibility issue. You know, like I was living in Creed and again, I didn't know how much my family, you know, was going to help me. So I was trying to figure out some, you know, being able to do it on my own. And even at one point, like I kept, like the road kept on leading me to Ibogaine, even though I was like, you know, didn't know what to do with that because it wasn't very accessible. Like I almost, I was super close to actually figuring out how to get a dark web account and like a tour browser in order to be able to order IGA off the dark web. You're going deep into the criminal path here, sis. Yeah, and like, you know, at the time I didn't, you know, I didn't know anything about psychedelics and kind of iga kind of having, you know, certain, like, I, I, I didn't know, like

Jason: I was just desperate. Like even if I had to order Ibogaine and do it on my own, like I was willing to do that even though I didn't realize the dangers of that. So what is Ibogaine. But before we get too far into it, let's just give uh, like a, for those that are listening, 'cause you know, if it's your first time hearing iboga, it's like, is this the type of medication? Is it a pharmaceutical? Yeah, it's, um, I mean it's not a pharmaceutical from like the pharmacy companies, but particularly the alkaloid that they use a lot of times in the opiate opiate like repair clinics in Mexico. 'cause there's a lot of ibegain clinics in Mexico, Costa Rica, I'm sure some other places I IGA is the extracted alkaloid from the Iboga plant. And the Iboga plant is a West African shrub that's from Gabon, Africa. And yeah, like I said, I began, what they use in addiction treatments in Mexico is the extracted

Jason: alkaloid from that plant that's specific to addiction. I mean, like I said, you can use it for other things in addiction, even other addictions besides opiate addiction, like people also use the iboga plant for spiritual exploration. But essentially it's a psychedelic bush called Cabernet Montana. I don't know the second part of it, but I think it's, I know it's from the Cabernet species. It's, it's from the same species of plant as the Nanga. But yeah, it's basically a psychedelic shrub in Africa. And it's a very unique psychedelic because you know a lot, I mean, you know, mushrooms are accessible everywhere, but, you know, peyote, ayahuasca, a lot of those medicines are, uh, native to North and South America. Ibogaine, you know, kind of has its own realm and it's from Africa, so it's a very unique psychedelic. And why, why did this keep coming up with the opiate addiction? Like why, why is Ibogaine special to what really seems like, I mean, I know it's

Jason: great for a lot of addictions, but it really seems to shine with opiates. Yeah. Like, I, IGA you know, like I said, can be used for various things. Even people use it to overcome, 20 year eating disorders and things like that. But particularly with opiate addictions, I began. Essentially repairs the o opiate receptors to go back to normal as if you had never abused opiates in your life. That's why it's so useful for addiction, because it takes away that constant like pull of, opiates, essentially the psychological hook and, well, I guess chemical and psychological, it, it can touch, uh, upon both, like, you know, with addiction, you know, people have to overcome the physical, part of it, whether it's going through withdrawals or using something like ibogaine that repairs your opiate receptors. But you know, it can also touch upon the psychological reasons, the processing and the understanding of why, you know, you even got into addiction. And yeah, it help, it helps with both

Jason: the physical and psychological aspects of addiction, but particularly for opiate addiction, it repairs the opiate receptors to go back to normal, to a pre addiction state. Okay, we're laying in bed at night, wired on crack, learning about Ibogaine. Where do we go from here? Like I said, like, you know, excessive when I was doing all this research, and, you know, it kept on leading me to Ibogaine, you know, I was in a precarious situation because I didn't know how much help I was going to get. I didn't know if people would understand that I wanted to go down this path. Um, so again, accessibility was a huge issue. I'm glad I didn't order it off the dark web. I'm glad that didn't work out. But eventually you know, my, my mom caught, caught onto me being addicted to opiates like early. But at the point of me doing all this research, like I could feel the outside pressure, whether, whether from my, the. Society in

Jason: Creed or like, you know, the people in Creed and my family, I could feel the pressure rising and I knew like my mom's the type of person that, like, if I don't figure out an option, she's gonna figure out an option for me. So that, you know, that's part of the reason why I was doing research. 'cause I wanted to do it in my own way. But again, I didn't know how much they would help me, even though my family, of course, was very willing to help me. Um, I just had so much shame and, uh, judgment of myself that I wasn't sure. So yeah, like I said, the, the pressure was kind of rising from my mom to kind of try to figure this out and take the steps, for me to get help. At first, you know, I, like I said, I didn't, I didn't know what to, didn't know what to do. I didn't even know going down to the, to an

Jason: iboga clinic was an option. I mean, I knew it was an option, but I didn't know if it would be an option for me. But eventually, like I said, I felt the pressurizing and eventually like, you know, my mom came over and talked to me and she wanted me to go to a detox. And at first I didn't exactly want to go to a detox because my detox option was the state run detox in Alamosa. And anybody that's been in addiction knows that state run detoxes or not the nicest place to what was so bad about it. I mean, it, it basically just felt like jail. I mean, they had a huge door that almost like a safe like door that locked as soon as you got in and you're pretty much locked in there for a week and you're not gonna get out and they kinda treat you like a criminal. Yeah. And it's very uncomfortable conditions. There was nowhere to sit except hard

Jason: plastic chairs. The only reading that you could do was the Bible and the only shows that they would show are old Western movies. And yeah, it was just very uncomfortable. You know, you had to wear, uh, what's the suits that you wear for prison? What are those called? Oh, like a jumpsuit. Yeah. You had to wear, I mean, it wasn't an orange one, but you had to wear that. The bedding didn't even have sheets on it. It was just a piece of plastic over a mattress and a scratchy wool blanket. So what, what, what are you feeling or thinking at this time when you're in the detox? I mean, master's degree two, bachelor's degree, seven time All American, and we're sitting in detox. Yeah. Yeah. That was a tough moment for me, especially because at, at the point that my mom was helping me get into the detox, like, you know, I knew that my mom was willing to help me and I was almost

Jason: gonna try to detox on my own. I ordered a lot of those supplements to help with detox. Um, but you know, by the time my mom was kind of pressuring me to do something, they hadn't come in yet, and I just had an internal knowing like just go with it and see how it goes. Go to detox and take it from there. So I, you know, I agreed to go to the detox. And this was in the town you went to college in? Yeah, that was the hard thing about it is this was a detox in Alamosa, Colorado, which was where I went to undergrad school. It's where I was a seven time, all American. So it was a very surreal feeling sitting and you know, like that detox was probably the worst place I've ever been in my life. Um, you know, obviously going through withdrawals, but also just the vibe there. Like I said, it felt like jail. It wasn't comfortable at all.

Jason: Like to me it's not a conducive state for actually helping someone be successful in coming off of opiates. But, you know, regardless, that was my path, that's what I was doing. But I felt extremely low sitting in the detox in the city that I was a seven time all American. Um, it was a very sobering, sobering feeling. You know, obviously even then I had a lot of, you know, I guess shame and judgment, but I also felt weirdly content like, because, you know, even though. I, I was in denial like a lot of people are in addiction. Like, I was glad to start the process of figuring it out because it's like, I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. Um, so even though it was very sobering and depressing, I was glad to be starting the process, I guess. Okay. So how long were you in detox? It was seven days and like I said, they locked the door and

Jason: you ain't getting out. Yeah. Long at seven days of your life function. It was a long seven days. I mean, the, the first couple days weren't too bad because, you know, you don't sleep as much on crack. So luckily for the first couple days, I mean, you still feel the beginning, you know, you feel opiate withdrawals, but I slept a lot the first couple days, but man, the last two days, oh my God, it was excruciating the whole time. I was thinking I cannot wait to get out and smoke some crack. I actually wasn't thinking about opiates. I mean, you still kind of have that craving, but like it was the last two days were very tough and. Like I said, the first two days weren't bad, you know, 'cause I slept more the middle part, you know, of course all you have to do is sit around and think about your life choices. Physical withdrawals were still pretty bad. And even though I slept

Jason: a lot the first two days I didn't sleep. Not even, I'm not even kidding. Not even 10 seconds for the rest of the time I was there. Wow. Because opiate withdrawals make it very hard to sleep. But yeah, while I was in the detox, even though I was glad that the process of me figuring out the next step was started I still knew I wasn't gonna be good after that detox, even though Yeah. I just knew, given the opportunity, you'd go and find your crack or heroin or whatever. Yeah. I knew that there had to be a next step and, you know, my mom didn't know about all the research that I had done and you know, she's, you know, she was just doing what a mom would do. Try to figure out the options with the options that she knew that were available. Whew. Yeah, so she had, um, she had me call and talk to a couple rehabs, I think in Denver or

Jason: something. One was maybe in Pueblo. And just like, kind of how I saw my prior partner and, you know, him going through detox, rehab, methadone, suboxone, even when I was at the detox, I mean, every day they were trying to sell me on methadone, and I knew I knew a hundred percent that I wasn't going to do that. But yeah, my mom had me talk to a couple of these detoxes or, you know, detox rehabs. And, um, that's the other thing about it is they're so expensive. Like, to go to a, the one in Denver was like $30,000 for a month. And one I felt, you know, because I've always been a very independent person, I felt bad that my, my family, I, I had even gotten to that point and that they had to help me financially. Um, but especially spending $30,000 on a rehab that I didn't even want to go to, it just, I, I just knew immediately from talking to those

Jason: people on the phone that this is not what I want to do. Especially 'cause the, the one thing that really did it for me is like, the one lady I talked to, you know, said she's been in recovery for 35 years and, you know, kind of, kind of expressed that it's, you know, still a fight every day. And I, I didn't want that. I wanted to be free back to You wanted to be rehabilitated? Yeah, I wanted to be back. I wanted to be fully free where I knew I, that I wouldn't have to be saying I'm in recovery for the rest of my life. I, I wanted different than what they said they could offer me and I knew that, but like, I was also worried about my mom being okay with the option that I wanted to do. You know, and I was just trying to make her happy by talking, you know, to the rehabs. Even though I kind of knew before

Jason: the call that I didn't want to do that. But after talking to them I was definitely like, no, this is not what I'm doing. And you know, so I was very forthright with my mom and I told her, I said, I know you don't really understand this option 'cause you haven't researched it to the extent that I have, but I said, find me an IGA clinic in Mexico and that is what I will do. And um, you know, I'm sure it was scary for my mom because, you know, it was just scary me going through addiction anyways. You know, she also thought I was almost going to die. Um, but, you know, also to go down to Mexico to do a psychedelic, you know, like, especially 'cause you kind of have to go by yourself, you know? I understand that it was scary for her, but in a, in a way it was really good for our relationship because I feel like it was one

Jason: of the first times in my life where my mom really listened to me. And just honored me and my path and what I wanted to do, even though it was scary for her to trust, she still did trust me and you know, that this was the right option for me. But, you know, she was worried about me going to Mexico. You know, I wasn't worried about going to Mexico, so she tried to find an IGA clinic in Canada, Canada that didn't work out. And, uh, my sister and her boyfriend ended up helping her find an IGA clinic in Mexico, um, called Experience Ibogaine, and it's in Rosarito, Mexico, just, I think it's like an hour south of Tijuana. But yeah, so, you know, my mom trusted in me that that, that was the best path for me. And it's funny 'cause like I said, the last two days of that detox were so excruciating because again, like after the first two days, I literally hadn't

Jason: even slept 10 seconds. So there was five days of literally zero sleep and, um. You know, I like, even though I told my mom on the detox or in while I was in the detox, that that's what I wanted to do, I didn't know how much work they had done behind the scenes to actually find a clinic. So I didn't know that right after I got out of the detox that it was, you know, the ball was gonna keep rolling because in my head, because I was so excruciatingly miserable in my head, it's like, I can't wait to go back home, smoke some crack and then figure this out.

Jason: But I mean, I think that, you know, they knew that that was probably going to be the case. So they knew when they picked me up from detox that, you basically go, we're going to the airport. Yeah, we gotta go to the airport. And I kind of also knew, like even though I really, really wanted to smoke crack, I also knew that if I smoked crack, that would delay me sitting with Iboga. So, even though it was hard to just go with it, I was like, okay, this is what I'm doing. So my sister drove me, you know, to DIA Denver, flew into San Diego. There was a, uh, they had a guy pick me up at the airport and drive me down to Rosarito, Mexico to the clinic. And it was also kind of, uh, what's the word? You know, there was weird synchronicities where I kind of knew that I was on the right path. Um, even though my mom was really scared

Jason: for me, like I, I wouldn't even say I was scared. I was like, yes. Like, I, I'm ready. And again, I saw Was there a knowing? Was there like, this is gonna work? Yeah, I always knew it was going to work. I mean, I still, you know, of course, like, you know, you don't wanna be so sure, like, I still, until you're back, you know, it's, it's still hard to completely trust it, but it, I knew cautiously optimistic. Yeah. I knew it was going to work. Just, I mean, even addicted to opiates and crack, anytime I would read about it, like my whole being would light up. So it's like I knew that this was my path and like I said, there was some synchronicities, like the guy that picked me up at the airport, um, I can't remember how old he was, but I think, you know, I told him some about my story. I'm from Creed, went to Adam State and he weirdly

Jason: 30 year, 30 or 40 years prior, had gone to Adam State. He knew all about Creed and all the surrounding areas. So I was like, okay. Like, you know, little things like that also make you feel like Yes. Little synchronicities. Yeah. So we get to the airport, we're on our way to Rosarito. You arrive. Still, I mean, you've read about Iboga, but now we're here. So what, what's that intake process like? For me, because I went to detox beforehand, the intake was relatively simple. Like sometimes, like, I didn't know this at the time, but like you, I, I mean, I'm not sure about fentanyl, methadone, and like Suboxone and Subutex. I don't think you can be on those type of opiates going into the Ibogaine clinic. Why is that? I mean, I don't really fully understand it, but what they told me is the opiate receptors that Iboga clears out are more sticky. That's the word that they use. I don't understand. I guess because

Jason: they're long lasting opiates. Yes. They, they tend to be more sticky in the receptors. Yeah. It's harder for iGen to do, its. So I was very grateful, especially 'cause I got pressured so much at the detox to go on methadone. I was very grateful that I, you know, I had never got on any of those. That's why I'm glad I had that experience with my partner to see that that wasn't the path that I wanted to do. So the intake for me wasn't too bad because you know, you can't be on those long lasting opiates and you can't be on uppers. If you are on uppers. They have to, you have to spend an extra, like two or three days of them flushing out your system and it's kind of an uncomfortable process. 'cause they're just flushing saline and I think it's saline water or something in your system and you feel, I don't know, it's just an uncomfortable process. So I'm glad that I

Jason: didn't have to do that because you know, I was like seven. Seven or to nine days clean, or maybe seven to eight days clean by the time I got there. So my system was ready. And this is not like just showing up to a mushroom ceremony. Like there's, if I, if I'm not mistaken, you need to get an EKGA liver panel. Yes. Yeah. That, that's the thing about iga, which is why I'm glad that I didn't just order it off the dark web and do it myself is like, you know, especially because addict's bodies are obviously in a vulnerable state. You know, a lot of times they're very skinny, malnourished, malnourished. I'm sure some people have heart issues like with uppers, but you, when they, when you get to the clinic, they do a liver panel. I don't know exactly what they test for, but there's certain enzymes that they test for in order to make in order for them to know that your liver

Jason: is capable of processing it. And it's not as big of a deal for opiates, but especially if someone's using ibogaine to come off of alcohol. It can, you have to be off of alcohol for, 'cause Ibogaine is a little harsh on the liver. Yeah. It can be a little harsh on the liver. But you know, it also, they also do an EKG on your heart to make sure your heart is also healthy enough. Mm-hmm. To handle the experience. But yeah. So when I got there, now, now when you arrived, because you know, you still don't know what you get, you're going down to Mexico. So did it feel professional? Did it feel sketchy or shady? Like, did you feel, did they make you feel comfortable when you arrived? Yeah, no, it, it, it didn't feel sketchy at all to me. They definitely made me feel comfortable. And what I really liked about it is. You were just a person that they were helping like the,

Jason: the other rehabs. It, it felt like a more of a judgy environment and like they probably treated you a little better than the detox. Yeah, they treated me a lot better. Not like some scummy addict, you know, that I don't, you know what I mean? But they treated you like a person. Yeah. They just treated me like a normal person that's trying to overcome an addiction. Yeah. Would ask you questions about, you know, your substance use and whatever, without feeling judged whatsoever. So yeah, it was a very, it was a very professional environment and, you know, the Iboga clinics versus like, you know, maybe a booth or ayahuasca ceremony. The Ibogaine clinics tend to not be ceremonial. I'm sure some may be ceremonial a little bit, but it's more of a clinical setting, particularly for people coming off of addictions and, you know, it kind of has to be that way because your body's in a vulnerable state from coming off of drugs. You know,

Jason: again, they have to make your, make sure your liver's healthy, make sure your heart's healthy. It's. More of a professional, uh, clinical experience and like a ceremonial experience. Mm-hmm. And I mean, at the time I was new to all psychedelics, so I didn't even know that there was like a ceremonial side you didn't know one way from another. But yeah, it felt very professional, I felt very comfortable. And, uh, I was lucky when I got there because, you know, sometimes I became, clinics can be busy and sometimes they may have five to seven clients there at a time. And luckily for me, there was only one other girl that was there. So, you know, me and her pretty much had the whole place to ourselves, which is, super nice. I'm glad it wasn't packed. Like I'm glad I could just kind of be relaxed and, you know, kind of be in my own space especially. 'cause like I said, I'm a shy person. I feel

Jason: like if there was a ton of other people there I mean, I, I, I again still would've done its job regardless of how many people were there. But I'm glad that it was that way. How did they prep you for the experience? I mean, was there a conversation of what to expect? Were there videos or tutorials or, um, I mean, they had some videos on their website of I mean it wasn't necessarily people talking about the experience. They were more like review videos of saying like, you know, this worked. I feel really good. You know, obviously they do the medical prep through the EKG and uh, the liver panel, but I mean, they also have a chef on site that cooks you good meals which is the heart about being in opiate withdrawals, even though I wasn't in the intense part of the withdrawals. Like it takes a while for your appetite to come back. So I almost wish I could have eaten more while

Jason: I was there because the chef was really good. But yeah, they prep you some for the experience, but especially because I was completely new to psychedelics, even though they did. You know, kind of prep you, some talk to you about the protocol. They hook you up to a heart machine when you're on it. Like, you know, they kind of explain how the night's going to go. But if you're completely new to medicine, it's hard to understand plant medicine. Yeah. If you're new to plant medicine, um, you know, I didn't know anything about psychedelics or you know, obviously, you know, a treatment like this. So they did prep me some, but like, I, I still wouldn't say I really knew what I was getting into. So

Jason: it's time for the experience. Walk us through it. Yeah, so, you know, generally I began, I mean, I, I don't know if it's all the time, but generally it's done at night. So, you know, they started whatever the treatment ceremony or I think it was around eight o'clock. And are you, are you in just a room? Yeah, I was, I was just in the room that I was staying in at the clinic. And you know, for the night they have a. Doctor on staff that stays with you all night and they have a nurse on staff that stays with you all night in the room with you, or they were outside of the room. And I mean, ob they, I mean, they're just right outside the door. So if you need something, you know, you can holler at them. But you know, you all, again, like I told you, you have to have, I don't know what the heart machine that they have you hooked

Jason: up to, but it's, that was kind of uncomfortable, is that you kind of had to be hooked up to this machine, which I didn't really like. But also, um, you know, people that do I, you know, that go down and do these experiences, a lot of times they're in a hard physical state. But, you know, I was very skinny. I know a lot of people in addiction can be very skinny, but I was, like very skinny. So they didn't really tell me that, 'cause they probably didn't want to scare me, but I think they were kind of concerned with how skinny I was. But yeah, uh, especially 'cause like I said, I didn't wanna be hooked up onto the heart machine, but, you know, again, they, they insisted. And so yeah, they sit outside your door, you're hooked up to the, the machine and they I can't remember exactly the dosaging and the protocol, but generally they, you know, start you with one to two,

Jason: one to two iboga pills and I think they space 'em out two hours in between and they give you either one to two each two hours depending on where you're at. And I don't know if it was because, you know, just from hardly eating anything through being addicted to crack if my digestion was slow. But I was shocked at how long it took to come up. Even by the third dosaging where I'm like six hours in. I think even by the fourth dosaging where you're eight hours in, I didn't feel anything. And like I said, going into it drive, driving down to Rosarito, like I wasn't scared or nervous, I was excited and I knew this was it. So when I'm like six to eight hours in and I don't feel anything, I'm like, fuck man. Like, what if this doesn't work? You know, I was trying not to kind of get discouraged or, you know, upset about it, but, you know, I kept on

Jason: telling 'em I'm not, I'm not feeling anything. And you know, they kept on just telling me, be patient. And um, like I said, because I think even though I'm, I'm assuming this, but I think they were concerned about me being skinny and I, I'm somebody that tends to have a higher tolerance to psychedelics. So, you know, sometimes I wonder if they didn't give me as much, you know, maybe that's the case, but I didn't really start feeling it until like seven or eight hours in. And um, I also came off of it really quickly. Like a lot of times people can be in Ibogaine for a very long time and still kind of feel. Even after the night's over and it's the next morning can feel what's called, it's called a gray state or a gray day where you're not necessarily in the psychedelic experience anymore, but you're not almost like a dream state. Yeah, almost like a dream state. But people talked about that,

Jason: but I didn't necessarily feel that it took a really long time to come up. I was in it, you know, probably from three or four in the morning till eight or nine in the morning. And then once it had worn off, um, I felt pretty good. I didn't feel in a gray state. So three to four to eight to nine, still a good, pretty good amount of time. Like what? Do you remember that experience? Um, or is it, is it kind of like a dream where it fades after time? Uh, a little bit of both. I still remember the experience, but, you know, psychedelic experiences in general can, you know, it's hard to remember every aspect of it. But yeah, like it wasn't, you know, and it's, it's, it was hard for me to even describe to other people once I even got back home. Because I was completely new to psychedelics, you know, it still took me on a psychedelic journey. A lot of

Jason: times people talk about, I began having visions and I'm somebody that you know, I didn't know this at the time, but also through my experimentation of psychedelics, like mushrooms, ayahuasca, bufo, I'm somebody that doesn't really have visuals. Mm-hmm. Like I don't. I did go through a psychedelic experience and, you know, it kind of showed me like maybe different patterns in my family with every, you know, my mom, my dad, my sister, my brother. Like, it showed me different things. But like I said, I didn't have like visuals of a lot, a lot of how other people described. I didn't have those visuals, not, not really a vision quest. More of just, uh, an understanding of things. Yeah, like I said, it gave me some understanding of, certain things in my life. Like I said, with my family, with my prior partner, with the dog that I had at the time. Yeah. Did it, did it feel heavy? Did it feel light? Were you ever scared?

Jason: Um, I wouldn't say it felt heavy. I was never scared. But I would say. I mean, I didn't have anything to reference it to in the time, but I would say compared to other people, it, it felt light. Mm-hmm. Especially 'cause like I said, when you come out of it, a lot of times people are in a gray state, you know, for days afterwards. But I felt back to normal, but that was a special thing about it. It took me through a psychedelic experience, showed me a few patterns and things in my life to look at, and then, you know, it faded quickly and yeah. But after I kind of faded out of it, you know, at like eight or nine in the morning, like. I knew it worked because I felt within every fiber of my being like, yep, I'm back. Like by, by nine o'clock in the morning. Yeah. You felt that? Yeah. It, it wasn't like a few days to where like,

Jason: ah, I haven't noticed I've been craving heroin. Or, yeah, like some people it, like, I think, um, that feeling may take a few more days, but for me it, it was immediately as soon, as soon as the morning came and it faded. Like I knew, like this worked and this is exactly what I thought it was going to be. And how did that feel? It felt so good. Like, I was so happy, like, especially because I was worried that it wasn't gonna come up for me. But even though it wasn't super intense, as intense as other people had described it, it was exactly what I needed in the moment. Now did that feeling last or did it fade after time where you started maybe getting cravings or. No, that, I mean, for, for me, that that feeling lasted indefinitely. But, you know, just kind of like we talked, um, like as far as opiates, like I knew I would never use opiates again. Crack cravings

Jason: were still there, here and there. But they weren't like so powerful that I was worried about going back to crack. It's just sometimes like when you're coming off of crack, you'll have like cracked dreams where you'll spend the whole dream trying to get high in crack and it just never happens. Yeah. So I had a little bit of that, a little bit of cravings for crack, but for opiates, I, I did it. I mean, I still, like, after I went to the Ibogaine clinic, I went to an ibogaine aftercare in Austin, you know, which is where I met you. And at the, I began aftercare. I kind of still felt a little bit of the fatigue. Maybe it was some coming from, coming off of opiates, maybe it was just 'cause my body was trying to recover. I was very skinny. I, I still wasn't sleeping that well. But yeah, like I knew that morning, like, I will never use opiates again, and I'm good

Jason: to go. Kelly is back. You know, about 20 years ago, I went through more of a traditional kind of 12 step program, and one of the things that that was commonly said was, once an addict, always an addict to remind you to basically never slip up, which was always a discouraging phrase for me to hear. But would you say you're an addict? I mean, I would say I was addicted to heroin and crack at one point in my life, but no, I wouldn't say that's the case. Yeah. So

Jason: nine o'clock in the morning we feel that we are back. That's a good feeling. Now Ibogaine wasn't the only thing you experienced there. What came after that? Yeah, like, um, another part, you know, this is very common at the Iboga clinics in Mexico, is you can add buff O as an add-on. And, you know, again, I'm entirely new to psychedelics. I literally have no idea what Bufo is, which for those that don't know, Bufo is the secretion of, uh, of the Sonoran toad that contains five DMT. Yeah. And I, like I said, I knew nothing about it. But yeah, like the, you know, that didn't happen for, you know, they give you like a few days to recover from Ibogaine, even though I didn't necessarily need as much recovery as other people. And I mean, even after I finished iga, like, like, you know, I came out of it really quickly and I was surprisingly very hungry. Like I was ready to get up, eat,

Jason: go to the sun, and lay in the sun, go to the hot tub. And even the nurse was surprised that I was even up and moving around. But yeah, it didn't take me too long to. Recover, um, after doing the Igan experience. But yeah, it was a, a few days after that, um, that BFA was a part of the add-on and, you know, again, knew absolutely nothing about it. It's just hilarious to me that, you know, you just went straight to the big ones on every step of this journey. You know, like usually people will start off with mushrooms or LSD, you know, in the, in the psychedelic world, but you went right to the big ones, ibogaine, and then bfo maybe one of the most powerful on earth. Yeah, and I didn't know that about BFO at the time. Um, yeah, I really didn't know anything about it, but, you know, I was kind of, you know, in a state of like, you know,

Jason: I'm on this path, so anything, you know, anything that's, we, you know, anything that's part of the, this path that I've gone down, I'm, I'm open to trying. So, you know, of course I sat with BFA while I was down there. And, um, did how did they prep you for that experience? I mean, it was similar to Ibogaine where, you know, they still, you know, talk to me about it, but like, uh, you know, I mean, even if you are familiar with psychedelics, if you've never sat with bfo, like, you know, people can, you know, talk to you a ton about it. And of course it can help you develop an understanding of it. But still, like, it's so hard to put into words that yes, they did their best to tell me about that, but I, I still had no idea what I was getting myself into. I was pretty blown away by how powerful it was and, um, and what did you experience?

Jason: I mean, at the clinic like compared to how we serve bfo, it, it also wasn't very ceremonially, uh, or very ceremonial. And one, you know, one of the nurses served me. Buffo and, you know, they just do it in, in one of the bedrooms, and it was like overlooking, it had like a balcony overlooking the ocean. And you know, the nurse that served it to me, she was like, you know, a really perfect person to serve it. Such a super sweet, sweet soul. She had struggled with depression because she had a husband that had died, and BFO kind of really helped her with that. And, you know, so I was, she was a really good person to, to serve it. A lot of people felt very comfortable around her. But it was definitely a blast off dose because I completely left my body. But the weird, the weird thing about it, it was so unbelievably powerful. Like, I, I, I couldn't, I couldn't even believe

Jason: it because when I came back, I was so far gone that I literally remember nothing. But I knew that I had experienced, you know, basically an ego death or full dissolution. Into everything. But, you know, because I, it was, I was so far gone in the experience and couldn't remember any of it. It was hard. It was hard to process, you know, 'cause it's hard to process something that you don't really remember. But I still was, like I said, taken aback by how powerful it was. 'cause even when I came back into my body, I was completely wet. And I had no idea that I threw up all over myself and have zero memory of it. You know, I just remember coming back, like, you know, the nurse had grabbed my hand at one point and it, you know, even that was such, it felt so powerful. It felt like an angel was grabbing my hand. So it was extremely powerful. But again, it was

Jason: a blast. Stop dosage. Hardly remembered any of it. And so it was hard to process it. IGA was a little bit more, slowed down, a little bit easier to process, but bfo, I knew how powerful it was, but didn't really know what to do with it. And even though BFA was powerful. You know, even leaving the Iboga Clinic, like I still knew how amazing it was, but my focus, ibogaine was what brought me back. Ibegain, you know, was the one that I talked a lot about when I, you know, went back home because even though BofA was powerful, it was hard to talk about 'cause it was hard to put into words, hard to remember. And Iboga was truly the thing that brought me back. So

Jason: we're back from Ibogaine. Now we're heading down to Austin, Texas. Yeah. So after after I, you know, I spent like a week in Rosarito, Mexico and afterwards like, um, you know, I was probably still a little bit in denial then. Like I knew I was completely good and, you know, I was kind of, you know, because I had a lot, a lot of love for the person that I was dating. You know, I was very concerned about him because, you know, he wasn't doing well either and I really wanted him to come and do ibogaine. So like at first I wanted to come back home, which I'm glad my mom kind of insisted that I should go to an iboga aftercare, even though I still think I would've been, you know, good not, you know, not have used drugs. When I came back home, it was still good for, it's good after I began and recovering from addiction to kind of. Have, you know, three

Jason: to four weeks to kind of reset, decompress before you start taking on life again. Is it kind of, would you call it like, um, a halfway house or, or a rehab for those that have gone the unconventional route to Ibogaine? I would say it's, yeah, it's basically a rehab for people that have done Ibogaine. But yeah, that was where I went for it was all, it was like three and a half, almost four weeks after doing Ibogaine in Mexico. And yeah, so again, it's essentially a rehab for people that have done Ibogaine. There was, now you, you went straight from Mexico to the aftercare clinic. Yep. I str flew straight from Mexico to, and and you were there for how many weeks? Four weeks. Four weeks. Okay. So what was that experience like? Because you're not, you're not, obviously Ibogaine is not legal in the US so you're not, you didn't do Ibogaine there, but this is just the after clar, the aftercare clinic to

Jason: kinda learn how to transition back into life again. Yeah. And to kind of, kind of give yourself time to restabilize process some stuff, kind of, you know, I kind of saw it as, you know, of taking some time to getting myself back physically and mentally, even though I knew I was good as far as opiates go. Um, but yeah, like, even though I don't know, it, going there in a way was hard for me because there was three other girls there. Um, I, I mean, at least there was more people. You know, a lot of times rehabs have like, you know, I don't know, I don't know how many people, but more than three other girls. And you know, there wasn't very many rooms in, in this Ibogaine aftercare, so I kind of, I was the final girl there, so I kind of got the last pick of the room. And I don't know, I'm just an extremely shy person and like I knew Iboga

Jason: was part of my path, but, you know, going to this ibogaine aftercare, aftercare wasn't necessarily, I guess in my planning. And like I said, I'm a very shy person, so going there, meeting the lady that ran the clinic, meeting the other girls, it was, you know, nerve wracking and out of my comfort zone. Like, yeah, I just didn't really know what to expect. I didn't necessarily know how to relate to other people that were in the same situation as me. But you know, after, you know, after three to five days of being there, I kind of like settled in, kind of fine. Found my own, space and, and grounds of being there. What would you say a day looked like in the, in an eyeball gain, aftercare clinic? Was it different every day? Were you on site all the time? Did you I would say it was slightly different every day. And you're, you're pretty much on site most of the time and you know,

Jason: it's, it's not like this wasn't as much a clinical setting. You're kind of just the, you know, the lady that hosted the aftercare, you know, you're in her house. Like it was kind of like a duplex, I guess, kind of. Um, but yeah, you're just kind of hanging out on that property for, you know, however long you're there. And I mean, they had various activities for us to do there. And just like I said with the buffo, like I had already stepped up on this, on this path. So anything that's available to me, you know, especially 'cause you're still paying quite a bit to, to go to this thing. Anything that's available to me, I'm gonna take advantage of it to try to better myself, you know, I might as well try everything that's available to me there. So there was various things. There was EMDR therapy that the lady that hosted the clinic you know, we did therapy EMDR therapy sessions once a week

Jason: where she kind of helped you break down some of your visions, you know, which was hard for me because I didn't have visions. So we kind of had to figure out different different approach. You know, there was ac ear acupuncture that is specific for addiction. We had, you know, gotten a massage at one point when we were down there. They had this thing called authentic relating that I also tried. And they also had this thing called smart meetings, which is kind of like AA, but a slightly different program, you know, and we would go to those meetings I think once or twice a week. I went to a sweat lodge down there. Um, and then we used to go to the YMCA, which, you know, is, I'm sure people know what the YMCA is. But I, I really enjoyed that too because, you know, they had a pool, I mean, they have everything at the YMCA. So for me, being, having an athletic background, it

Jason: was really fun for me to get back into, you know, just being physical, working out. Even from the, I began aftercare since I was a runner. I slowly got back into running, but it was almost shocking to me how hard it was to get back into running, going from being a seven time all American to, I can only run 10 minutes off and on one minute. But, you know, I kind of slowly physically started getting myself back. Um, and I think that was most of the activities that were there. And you got to experience Campbell. Yep. Campbell was a part of the experience. But yeah, and it's funny too, 'cause my nickname there was Hungry Kelly because. You know, I was so skinny and when I was there I literally, I would literally eat almost a whole loaf of Dave's killer bread with butter. Like not quite one loaf a day, but it was crazy how much I ate. But it was also very fun

Jason: to have an appetite again and eat and enjoy food. But yeah, another part of the experience there was Cambo. You know, one, one of the girls at the Iboga aftercare that had, you know, been there for a few weeks, had experienced Cambo with this guy named Jason Fellows. And, you know, she and, um, one of the thera not therapist, what would you call Ray? Like an assistant? Yeah. Assistant counselors there, you know, they were telling me about Campbell and they were saying that they were gonna schedule Jason to, you know, come serve Campbell. And obviously again, I'm new to the medicine, plant medicine, amphibian medicine field. So I obviously had no idea what Camba was. But again, I was going to do everything that was available to me on this path because why not? I'm here. So, um, yeah, so because one of the girls at the, I began aftercare was doing it and one of the counselors was doing it. I was like, okay,

Jason: well yeah, you know, sign me up, I'll, I'll do it with you guys. And that's where I first met Jason. So if somebody out there is not familiar with Campbell, how would you describe that experience, at least for your first time, if you can remember back? It had to seem a bit out there. I mean it, like it was out there, but also I was, you know, in such a different mind state compared to like, who I was before I even got into heroin addiction, where I didn't, you know, touch any drugs or anything like that. You know, like I had, you know, being in the plant amphibian medicine field, you know, really for only a few weeks, like I really only knew the psychedelic side of it. And, you know, I loved the psychedelic side of it. So were you kind of getting were you kind of getting excited about this whole new little subculture you discover, discovered all these different healing modalities? I

Jason: was, but I did, I don't think, like, I just was thrilled about, I began, I don't think I knew how much there was to discover in the subculture. Like my whole focus was just like, IGAs awesome. Like, I'm gonna tell everybody about him. But yeah, Cambo. Yeah, I don't know. It, it was, you know, it was interesting, you know, especially, you know, I'm sitting in the ibogaine aftercare, like I had just met you. And I don't know, he seemed like an interesting person. And um, yeah, I was just along for the ride, but you know, even though I was kind of more into the psychedelic side of it, 'cause you know, that's all I knew at the time. Um, you know, Campbell was still a very interesting, I don't know, it was just an interesting, unique modality. And Campbell coupled with Hape and Nanga, it was like super fun that first day to, to learn about all those things. And yeah, I didn't even, it,

Jason: it probably wasn't until I did meet you and talk to you that I realized how much more of a treasure trove that I had stumbled upon outside of just Ibogaine. But yeah, like, you know, I would I mean, people know Cambo Cambo is a physically uncomfortable experience. But yeah, it was super interesting. Interesting. And it, and it actually ended up being Campbell that brought your period back after addiction? Yeah, after a couple of months, right? Yeah. When I was addicted, I didn't, I had lost my period for, I don't know, it was at least a year. It hadn't brought my period back that time, but it was a later time. Mm-hmm. When you had come to visit in Cree that it had brought my period back after not having it for like a little bit over a year. But yeah, you know, Campbell was very interesting. You know, it's kind of definitely bizarre sensations that I've never experienced it, you know, it's a brand new

Jason: medicine. I didn't know what to think of it. And yeah, it brought my period back. Like it still, like I always even tell our, our Campbell students when we're introducing ourselves in class, Cambo to me isn't what it was to you. For me, that was iga. So even though Campbell was interesting and probably did help me with clarity and bringing strength and rebalance in my body after addiction again, it still wasn't to me what it was to you. But yeah, it still helped me in various ways, such as bringing my purity back, giving me clarity, helping my physical body recover. But yeah, it was also you being, there was a realization that's like, oh, I've stumbled onto a lot more than just I brigade. Especially like you served us a lot of hape and I immediately love hape. Especially because even though I knew I wasn't ever going to like use hard drugs again. Felt good to do something. Yeah. It felt good to do

Jason: something that, you know, could kind of still alter your state and kind of ground you in. I don't know it, I just really liked Hape and for those that aren't familiar with Hape, it's an Amazonian snuff that's blown up the nose that can create different sensations and Jason and I don't know. Ja, you're just so good at serving it that I was, I don't know, I was just like, this is awesome. So yeah, it was fun to just realize that I stumbled upon more than just iga and I mean, you know, it was fun to meet you, especially 'cause like I said, you know, you seemed like an interesting person. And Yeah, it was, and I mean, even you, you say the first day, like I, I don't think I realized it the first day, but you said you were blown away by how much conversation we just had. I mean, I was just sitting there being myself, eating a whole bag of PEO chips

Jason: and sitting Yeah. You know, I remember showing up that morning and meeting you and even, you know, this is my first time ever meeting you is to serve Campbell. And, uh, you looked so thin. I, I could see all the striations in your shoulders and it's like, I, I almost didn't serve you, but there was also, I would've, I probably would've been pissed. I can also tell there's this kinda you had this bit of. Not attitude, but determinants that this is happening. And, uh, and you were amazing. You said amazing. And, uh, yeah. And then we just kind of had this flow of uninterrupted conversation that happened just so effortlessly. And I was, I was just, uh, I was fascinated by, I mean, I, you know, I, I served Campbell quite a bit at that clinic, at the aftercare clinic, and, and everybody has a story. And I was always so fascinated by these stories of addiction and, uh, you know, former addicts have become

Jason: some of my best friends just because they're just the most real, most raw people. Um, yeah. And it, it was just incredible meeting you, talking to you, learning your story, and, uh, and even learning more about Iboga, you spent four weeks there at the aftercare, and then you went back home. This had to feel strange. Yeah, it felt strange, but you know, I don't know. I was also super excited to go back home you know, creed because my family's lived here forever and because my family lives here currently, like, you know, creed is my heart. So I was, even though it did feel weird to leave, I was also, you know, excited to go back home. And, you know, my mom had some concerns of me going back home because my, uh, ex-boyfriend, you know, was still living in Creed. But yeah, like, you know, it wasn't, you know, I, I got to see him when I, when I came home, but it wasn't, you

Jason: know, at the, I began aftercare. A lot of people talked about, like, you know, hanging out with your old friends or, you know, people were worried even with IGA going back into addiction. But like, you know. I knew that outside of my ex-boyfriend that it wasn't really an issue. It's not like I, I only ever really used with him, you know, some, my cousin, but my cousin wasn't living here at the time when I moved back, so I knew it wouldn't really be an issue. Um, yeah, it kind of came to the understanding that the relationship probably needs to transition to a friendship. Yeah. And I mean, that part was definitely, definitely sad and, you know, just kind of recalibrating to life in general. I mean, for me, I would say it was easier than it is for some addicts because some addicts like, you know, like my cousin struggle from a young age and, you know, struggle throughout their twenties and it, it's, it's

Jason: kind of hard to go back to a normal life because maybe they never even started having a normal life. It wasn't too hard for me to transition other than kind of having realizations with him and letting him go. I mean, I had already let the relationship go. But I still had so much love and care for him and it was hard to see him because, you know, I had kind of recovered and got myself back and was in a much healthier state, but it was so hard to like, you know, he was just so skinny and so pale, and I could just tell he was still in so much pain and struggling so much. And I really wanted, you know, him to go and do ibogaine and, you know, he, you know, because he had been on the, the path of addiction for a lot longer. When you struggle with it for longer, it's, it's probably hard to keep having hope. You know, I had

Jason: hope throughout my whole journey just 'cause, you know, it was just my path and, you know, it was my first time going through it, so I had the vigor to have that hope. But, you know, he was very discouraged, very sad and like I said, very skinny, not in a good state. So it was hard to see him, especially because I still, even though. You know, I had accepted that, you know, our path together was over. You know, I still loved and cared for him deeply. So it was hard to see him struggling so much and I really wanted him to go do Ibogaine especially 'cause he did struggle with it for his whole life and I knew it would help him. But I also kind of had a lot of, you know, realizations. That's why it was good that I went to the Ibogaine aftercare of, I don't know, like, I guess trying to control me helping him or forcing it into an outcome.

Jason: I kind of like, even when I was at the Ibogaine aftercare, like, you know, he was still like, he still had my credit card and when, you know, was using my credit card to pay for gas to go pick up and you know, even taking out cash and stuff like that. And I felt horrible having to cut 'em off. Um, but I knew I had to like one obviously for my financial reasons 'cause. You don't have that much money when you're addicted to heroin. But I also, even though I knew it would be painful for him, for me to cut him off, I knew I had to in order to actually help him. And I knew begging him to go do Ibogaine wasn't the way to get him down there. I almost had to, give him the information, tell him, you know, how important it is that he does this, but let it go after that. And luckily, once he finished, you know, creed is

Jason: a, a touristy, it has a summer season and you know, he worked at the restaurant that I worked at. And so once he finished the season in Creed, especially because I cut him off, you know, of using my money and you know, I changed my perspective on trying to get him to go down there. I just gave him the information, educated him about it, um, but kind of was hands off about it and let him make the decision. He did eventually go, go down there and do Ibogaine because I mean, he really didn't have any other options. And but he wasn't hopeful. Like I was like, you know, he, you know, like I said, it's easier to lose that hope if you struggled with opiate addiction for longer. And, you know, he, you know, even when I would tell him about it, he'd be like, you know, you're different. Like, it worked for you because you're a strong person, but you are different. It's not

Jason: going to work for me. And, um, you know, I didn't completely know that it would work for me because, you know, sometimes people don't completely get off of addiction after doing Iboga, but I still knew that it would work for him. Um, but like I said, I took a different str a stance as far as pressure, like in, you know, like I said, he really didn't have any other option. It's not like he's gonna go back on methadone. It's not like he was gonna go to a detox or a rehab. So I was hands off about it, educated him about it but he didn't believe that it was going to work. And you know, I wouldn't say, you know, he went down there and did ibogaine. I wouldn't say. IGA didn't put him on the same path that I've been on and, you know, kind of committing my life to these medicines and working with you. But it still did work for him. Like after

Jason: doing Ibogaine, you know, like I said, he may not have used it to up level and change his life as much as I did, but he said it was the first time in his life, you know, after becoming addicted to opiates from a young age, that he ever didn't feel that gnawing feeling of heroin, constantly kind of telling him to go use. Mm-hmm. He says, that's the first time I've ever experienced that. So it did work for him. And how's he doing today? He's doing good. Like I said, it's, you know, he, I wouldn't say he changed his life as much as I did, but you know, he hasn't Still clean. Still clean. Yeah. Yeah. That's a win. Yep. That's a win. Okay. So we're gonna bring it to a stop there for now, and then we're gonna do a part two where we're going to get into your journey of creating tribal detox and pursuing the path of a medicine woman and your journey

Jason: to bfo. Okay. All right. We'll see you then.