From Addiction to Healing – Jesse's Journey Through Recovery, Kambo, and Brain Health

All right, Jessie, welcome to the show. Hi. Thanks for having me. So today, you know, it, it's essentially an interview process, but, you know, when we have a facilitator of any modality, I like to start with the question, what are the events or the event that brought you to the medicine? Whether it was trauma, whether it was curiosity, like what was the thing? Oh, in a nutshell, uh, the thing was I was seeking relief for mental health. I had gone back on antidepressants during a postpartum phase, and- How long ago was this? This was, uh, 2017. I'm sorry, 2016 I went back on antidepressants a year after my daughter was born, my youngest. Okay. So the first child? Uh, second child. Second child. Yeah. You're experiencing postpartum? Yeah, postpartum. What, what was that like?

Oof. Everything was just really overwhelming. Everything was overwhelming, um, even though I had every reason to feel like I had purpose and fulfillment because, you know, my children, my family, um, I still wasn't fulfilled. I was tired. I was burnt out. Um, I felt disconnected from my community. Um, I felt disconnected, uh, professionally because I had taken some time. Um- Did you feel like there's a disconnect between you and the child? Yes and no. Mm-hmm. In the sense that I knew that I was caring for her, obviously. Um, and you know, it's one of those things when first moment you lay your eyes on your baby and you realize you've known them f- far beyond this lifetime. Mm-hmm. Um, you've known them forever. Um, but it was... There was other circumstances going on, too. Uh, my husband, um, he was a commercial diver, so he did underwater welding. Mm-hmm. And Ava was just a few weeks old when he had to go back to work.

Okay. And so I think a lot of that started there, so I felt unsupported. Um- Is he overseas, so hard to contact? Or obviously not at home. Commercial divers usually- Yeah, he was in Spain for that one. Okay. Yeah, he was in Spain. He didn't wanna go. Right. Of course he didn't wanna go. No, of course. Yeah. It was his first baby, um, and my second. But I had But mental health, um, stabilization hadn't... I'm no stranger to that. I had gone, started feeling, you know, uh, mental health problems, emotional problems as a teenager. And so I struggled through my later teenage years, through my 20s, um, and I was, I was 30... I was 35 when Ava was born, so I wasn't a spring chicken having my second child. When you were young, were there any coping mechanisms? Or were you put on meds when you were young? Um, so I did, and my coping mechanisms were, was to use drugs. Mm-hmm. I was,

I was in seek- I was seeking a spiritual experience any chance I could get. Mm. So I had, uh, my, my coping mechanism was psychedelics- Gotcha and cannabis. Okay. Um, starting from a young age. You know, I was 13 years old. First time I ever experienced anything that took me outside of myself- Wow um, was for sure that I had arrived. Right. It was like, "Oh." 'Cause it was a relief. You know, there was a relief or a pain point, and everything finally got still. And so that's just what I did. Um, but, uh, I came into recovery in 2009. I got clean and sober, um, and I've sustained, uh, recovery since then. So... And the, the interesting part is that that is where my path kind of took me. I was already disappointed in the pharmaceutical industry because I had been on and off of the antidepressant wheel numerous times, um, into, I wanna say it was shortly after my first was born. She

was born in 2006. Um, but I had already upgraded my active addiction to opiates and other hard street drugs. So obviously, that wasn't working. I didn't have a consistency with pharmaceutical medication because I already felt like it was failing me. I never felt like it was a good fit anyway, and it kinda went against something I believed to take, even though it didn't matter what else I ingested. Um, so when I got clean, um, I had the influence of understanding my brain health and my brain's biochemistry, and that was the focus of this treatment center that I went to. Um, and I picked it. I picked this place for a reason, um, specifically for that, and had a lot of hol- holistic modalities. You know, you hear, um, you know, holistic treatment centers, dual diagnosis holistic treatment centers. This truly was, and it was really beautiful. But, um, and to, you know, wrap that segue up, it, that pushed me into do what I do

today for work. So it- It made such a profound difference in such a short amount of time to utilize what I was taught in that treatment center, which was to use amino acid protocols and nutrition to rebalance my brain's biochemistry. It was so profound. It happened so quickly, and I returned to a baseline so quickly after so many years of use. Um, my mental health felt good. My emotional health felt good. You know, granted, when you, when you get clean and sober, you are not well. You know, there's, there's a lot to get into and a lot to still stabilize there, but- Especially psychologically, right? 100%. Um- 'Cause I feel like when people, you know, coming off of street drugs or, or any type of narcotic, you know, any- anything that we develop an addiction to and, you know, they're-- the general public's very curious because it's just that, you know, they've never had that experience. Mm-hmm. And, you know, many think that just becoming

clean, the hard part is just the physical detox- Right not realizing that there's some psychological recovery to do following that as well in terms of just waking up with wild anxiety or- Right you know. Were you experiencing things like that? I was. Um, you know, and obviously through my treatment experience, you know, we got into some deep dive with, you know, psychiatrists and therapists and found underlying trauma, you know. And today, it doesn't matter if your trauma is a big T trauma or a little T trauma. If it made an imprint, and a lasting imprint in my, um, you know, my developmental ages, which is some things I had discovered, um, it was no reas- no, no wonder why I was self-medicating. Um, and, and it's funny 'cause when I, when I got out of detox and I got to the treatment center and you sit down with a psychiatrist, you have to go through medical before you, you know, your, your admission is complete.

And within that first 15 minutes, that psychiatrist had diagnosed me bipolar II. Wow. Within 15 minutes? With 15 minutes. You know, you're in. You do your biopsychosocial. It's-- The, the process of getting in is longer than the amount of time that you sit with a psychiatrist. Mm-hmm. And I remember I was really angry. Once I had a, um, a system that was void of chemical substances, I was very angry. Mm-hmm. And I remember being really pissed off. Really- At the diagnosis? Yeah. I was like, "Of course I'm bipolar II right now. I just took a needle out of my arm. I probably still have burn marks on my lips from a crack pipe." Mm-hmm. And I remember asking like, "Can I just stabilize first?" And so I refused medication. Um, and that is, you know-- And so obviously, like, what they offered on the amino and nutrient protocols that were available to us, I grabbed it, and I saw relief immediately. So

food, nutrients, supplements? Treating supplements, food, um, you know, the l- literally treating from that holistic standpoint mentally, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Mm-hmm. And, you know, yes, the psychological stuff was still there because, you know, you have to break those patterns, and, uh, neuroplasticity is a, a beautiful concept. You know, you can rewire, you can re-pattern, um, but it r- does require discipline and, um, commitment. And all I knew... I didn't really know that I was going to stay somebody that was gonna be clean and sober for any length of time. I just knew that I didn't wanna die, and I didn't wanna continue to feel that pain and whatever it was that was stirring inside of me that kept me for reaching outside of myself to soothe the pain point, whether it was mental or, you know, or emotional. Um, and so that part has been a complete journey. So- Now when, now when- Mm-hmm you were introduced to this or in your recovery- Okay

was this before or after the pregnancy? That was after. Okay. My oldest daughter was about to turn three years old when I entered treatment. Yeah. So, and I had- Gosh. You know, it was one of those things where my, my opiate addiction started in a doctor's office, in an orthopedics office for something legitimate. Um, that was the never-ending prescription path. That was what, that's what was going on in the early 2000s- Mm-hmm you know, um, in the mid-2000s. So, and obviously once I received the letter that said, "You are no longer welcome here at this office," uh, 'cause obviously I was drug-seeking at that point- Mm-hmm and it was very obvious. Um, so I turned to the streets, and heroin was cheaper than pills, and that escalated quickly. Um, but what I knew was that... You know, I-- looking back now, I also recognize that there was postpartum, so there was already some untreated mental health and emotional health stuff going on with me that

I never had really taken enough time to acknowledge. Um, but I think I had been, I'd been high for so long, I didn't really give a shit. You know- Mm-hmm it wasn't so, it wasn't... I didn't wanna stop using. We don't use because drugs suck. We use because it feels good. Mm-hmm. Like, period. That's not to glamorize it. That's just telling the truth, you know? But it gives us something that we're not getting- Yeah in our life, whether it's that embrace of a warm hug- Yeah you know, or just, just the comfort or just, just to be able for a moment to feel like everything's not collapsing. Yeah, just to be okay. And that, you know, and I was using just to be okay, and was not okay, not even, not even a little bit. Um, so, you know, when, uh, when postpartum kicked in after my second was born, you know, I recognized it right away, and I tried really hard to be my

own client, to create my own protocols to help bring me out of that darkness and to, you know, stop that downward spiral, and I just... I didn't have the energy. I was exhausted. I was emotionally exhausted. I was physically exhausted, mentally exhausted. Um, I was tired. I was a tired mom. Um, and so I gave in and I said okay, and went back on antidepressants. How did it feel? Like, uh, self-betrayal Yeah Did they, were they giving you what you were looking for? They gave me exactly what I asked for. Yeah. They said, "What's worked before?" And I knew all those years back that, um, Wellbutrin was something that had worked for me, which interestingly enough actually didn't work for me. So postpartum, we decide to get back on antidepressants. How long before you're like, "This, this isn't working. We gotta do something else"? So I had intended on only being on them temporarily, for about 90 days, just to get me over the hump,

get it in, get it working, get myself feeling back to feeling like I could just function normally. Just kinda take the edge off so you- Yeah could function. Yeah. 'Cause it was going against everything that I believed in, and it was harder than I thought it was gonna be. So it was almost a full year that I was on that Wellbutrin, and I kept trying to take myself off. I'd end up back on, and but out of surrender, like surrender to feeling defeated, that like, "What the hell? This isn't, this isn't doing what it's supposed to do." You know, when we think of these psych meds, SSRIs or, you know, benzos or what- what- whatever it is, you know, and because it's prescribed to us, you know, by a doctor, a psychiatrist- We, we don't, or the general public doesn't typically think of these things as being addictive. No. But, you know, w- obviously, if we try to get off of something and, and can't,

that's, I mean, that's addiction. Mm-hmm. What was keeping you... What, what made it so hard to get off? Was it physical withdrawals? Was it your mental state? It was... I mean, the first part is the physical withdrawal. Physical withdrawal was... It's, it's grueling. It doesn't feel good. You feel terrible. You feel, get brain zaps. You have confusion. You have insomnia. Your, your weight starts to do funny things. Your body starts sweating when it's not supposed to. Um- Well, Butrin has a, a... Also, it's known to lower seizure threshold. Did you ever feel any of that or experience any of that? Seizures? Mm-hmm. No. Okay. No. And, and, and also, n- to be noted, this was a primary doctor that was s- prescribing these. Okay. Which I have a whole opinion about that. Interesting. You know? Yeah. I have a whole opinion on that one. Um- I didn't even know primary doctors could prescribe psych meds. R- right. It doesn't make sense, right? No. Yeah, it

doesn't make sense. Um- That would be like a psychiatrist prescribing antibiotics. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, it was the, the, uh, the first thing they would always put me back on was not being able to withstand the withdrawal, but because, you know, I had the, the regular responsibilities of, of a mom. You know, there, there is no time in the day. You can't carve out time in the day to, you know, go through your antidepressant withdrawals and keep everything functioning. Um, so I can just continue to

go back on them. I mean, I'm talking within a week span. Like I wouldn't make it a few days, and I'd be like, "I can't do this. I can't. I have to sleep." Yeah. "I have to function." Yeah. "I have kids I have to get to school." I, I... At some point, I have to get back to work, 'cause I still wasn't 100% back to work. Um, and It's just one of those things where this-- you can't make this stuff up on how Kambo came into, came into my, my orbit, my world. Mm. And it's a, it's a, it was a silly wild story about sitting on my porch that was full of plants. It kinda looked like a little mini Amazon jungle out there at one point 'cause I was a little bit of a crazy plant lady. And, um, we had the Cuban tree frogs that are invasive in Florida 'cause I'm in Central Florida. And I would love being out there. These

freaking frogs, they would just... They loved it too because it was very lush, very tropical. And That literally, the conversation of me telling somebody that these frogs bring me so much joy when I was struggling so hard. It was like my reprieve was that porch. I could step away from the kids, I could chain smoke a million cigarettes, hang out with the plants, and just hang out with these frogs. And the conversation turned into, "Have you ever heard of kambo?" I was like, "No." You know, and, and I had not been a, a stranger to, um, being on a spiritual path, understanding that I had had a spiritual awakening that began in 2009. Um,

but I was not... I was so I'll just say it. I was so 12-step recovery focused and anonymous fellowship focused that I had myself in this box that said I had to work within these parameters in order con- to continue to call myself clean and sober- Mm and, and long-term recovery. And, you know, I've- Been through the 12-step program. And it was, you know, it was long before I found this path, but, you know, and it's very oriented around a higher power. Mm-hmm. Which, which is beautiful. Yeah. But it was also oriented in a way that you are not strong enough to do it without an hi- uh, without a higher power. Mm-hmm. Right? Uh, almo- it, it almost felt like it,

in a sense, removed my power to be able to do it on my own. Yeah. You know, and, and I have a, a unwavering respect for the 12 steps- Mm and the anonymous fellowships. It hel- helped me save my ass, and I was in the center of that program, and I loved every minute of it, and I chose to be an active, active participant, and I did the things that they said, "If you wanna stay clean, do these things." Mm-hmm. And I did those things over, and over, and over. I'll never deny that. And, and for many- But, yeah it really works. Yes, absolutely. You know, um, but at the same time, I do remember... I remember that thing saying, "I wanna be well, but I have to, I have to continue identifying myself as an addict." Mm. "Hi, my name is Jesse. I'm an addict." Mm. That didn't feel like well. That didn't feel like an opportunity to-

Have empowerment A- and there is also kind of a concept of once an addict, always an addict. Yeah. You know, and, and it's a, it's an interesting thing to talk about because it can become controversial, but I also have come to understand that I've had to go through a, a deprogram of the program over the course of the years, you know. And if, if I need a meeting, I will still go to a meeting. Mm. I'm not, I've... It's not, not, it's not like that at all, you know. I will absolutely 100% still go to a meeting. Um, but I- But, but you knew there was, there was just something more- There was something more or there was a missing element that, that you weren't quite getting. Yeah. Well, I knew that, you know, at the, upon completion of these 12 steps, you know, having had a spiritual awakening, I knew that m- I, I was already expanding beyond those parameters- Mm just in my

personal experience. Um, and I wanted to know what the rest of that looked like. Um, but it also kept me within this box that I didn't, you know, like I would side-eye the spiritual community and the things that were going on over there. I was like, "Y'all are not clean." Out of a judgment, you know? I didn't, I didn't know, but I, what I did know is that I stayed away from it, you know, out of fear that I was gonna relapse, that it would turn into something that I wouldn't be able to manage. You know, and obviously I knew nothing about Kambo. I had no idea that it was not psychoactive, and that even within recovery parameters, like I would still be, you know, quote unquote, "safe." Mm-hmm. Like, I was still clean and sober, you know. Clean date still intact. Um, a- and what's interesting is, um, the, the person that became my facilitator, dear friend of mine, love her dear, like soul

sister, um, you know, we had similar paths. Shock, shocker. Similar paths. Um, but so, but that's how I found Kambo, and I started to research it, and I started to see the things online. Even though, you know, obviously if somebody, just anybody Googles Kambo, they're gonna see some things that are gonna scare the shit out of you. Hmm. And make you, like, not even consider going forward to make a phone call. Um, and but then I, I, I found myself in contact with them and setting up a day to go, and the intention was I need to get off of these antidepressants. And the research that I have done and the things that I have learned about what Kambo is

This is it. This is gonna dial into my brain's biochemistry and my biology in a way that no pharmaceutical out there is going to be able to, and I don't ever wanna go back to these things again. Because it still, it, like that, that feeling of self-betrayal to take something that you are hard-pressed 100% against. Like, you literally, your, your job, your career is to help people to not have to rely on those, but then here I was with my own antidepressant prescription. It felt like shame and it felt like betrayal, and I knew I never wanted to go back to that. Were you brushing up against imposter syndrome as well? Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So kambo comes into your awareness. Yeah. Where do we go from there? Kambo comes into my awareness, and I found myself feeling like it was the hardest thing. I w- I would have rather had child labor again. It was grueling. I was not okay. I did

not feel well. I had to stay off of my medication before I could sit there And The most sacred space was created for me to step into and surrender in, and show up with all of my shame, all of my guilt, all of my feelings of self-betrayal, all of my worthlessness, all of my hopelessness, and it was treated as sacred. I get chills just saying that right there. It was treated as sacred. It no longer... Like, it immediately, the shame and the guilt was removed because I was told that was sacred, and I had now entered into a sacred space, and I was about to commune with something that was far beyond description. But I had answered a call

And I sat there and we did, uh, three days, one session, one ceremony, one session each day, and we did three days, and it was hard, and my body was not happy. There-- It was It was rough. I remember f- it feeling really, really rough in bed. Couldn't figure out... I'm questioning every life decision I had, uh, up to that point thinking- Having moments of regret and going, "W- what is... There is some- there's gotta be something wrong with me if this is where I've ended up." But I felt a relief.

I felt that from, from the very f- first time I sat. Within the next hour, I felt the stillness, and I felt that calm, and I was like, "I have got to keep doing whatever this is 'cause I know we're not done," you know? And that turned into me sitting annually. And I think in some of the years, um, that was in 2017. In some of the years, I, I sat more than once, um, when I could arrange to, to be there 'cause at this point I was living in Central Florida. My practitioner was in Miami area, which is where we had lived prior to that, prior to coming up into Central Florida, and

I wanted to sit more times than I actually had the ability to get down to do. Um, but I've never touched an antidepressant since then. I haven't had to. When you started sitting with... So 2017- Mm-hmm that's a, that's before people really started to know about Kambo, so you were really diving into the unknown. Yeah. Were you talking to anybody about this? Yeah. I had, um, people that were really close to me. I had somebody really close to me, really special to me, um, she's family essentially, um, and she had sat with Kambo. I trusted her. I trusted her.

Following the experience, did you talk to many people? W- did, did, did it, did it feel crazy? Yeah. I didn't tell anybody. My husband knew. Um, I remember wanting to conceal my dots. I wanted to conceal my burn marks. Um, I didn't want anybody to judge me. Mm. So I was still battling, like, these two realities. Like, I knew that there was something here, and I knew that there was something here that I never had anticipated, and it far exceeded any expectation. I mean, I didn't even know if this shit was gonna work. I had no idea. I was questioning my sanity. We... I've often called Kambo a

911 prayer. Seems like when nothing else is working and the doctors can't seem to fix what it is we feel like is wrong with us, and we've t- turned every solution under the sun. Some crazy friend of ours- Yeah tells us about frog medicine. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, and it just happens to be always at the right time. And it was. That, that answered prayer when we needed it. Yeah. So you're feeling relief from Campbell. Mm-hmm. How's this starting to impact you in your everyday life with your, with your daughter, with the postpartum, with your family? Um, I guess thinking back,

I can't-- I don't have a whole ton of details that are really coming to the forefront of my mind other than, um, things must have been better. Mm-hmm. Because I did not resume an antidepressant prescription. Um... Did you feel free? Well, yeah. But I still felt like there was more too. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of, I guess, one of those things, you know, uh, when, when do you not still... When, when do you stop seeking more, you know? Mm-hmm. But, um, I knew that there was more and I knew that there had to be a maintenance along with it. But also, you know, my practitioner, she, she was very thorough with the integration process with me anytime that I ever sat. You know, there was always a, there was always homework. You know, there was homework before I got there and there was homework after we were done. Um, but things did get better, better to the point where, you know, I could still keep

going and take care of my kids. Yeah. So we come off, we come off the psych meds. Mm-hmm. We're feeling like us again, which I'm sure is, is starting to open up more curiosity or more exploration. Mm-hmm. Just, just for the simple fact that you feel like you again. So where does life start to go from here? From there? Well, I mean, we had some wild twists and turns in there. Um, so I was still managing some things at home. Um, my husband was also in recovery and struggled to stay sober. Um, and so we were navigating that at home. And I was continuing to do my regular work with helping people with nutrients and aminos, um, in the recovery community and mental health. Um-

But I, I also think that it helped to expand... I, I don't wanna say expand the road. It made the lane wider along my own spiritual journey and my own self-improvement, if you will, my own spiritual expansion, personal expansion. Um, I still was afraid to talk about Kambo out loud. I don't think I ever told my sponsor, actually. Really? Yeah. I'm just thinking about this right now. I don't think I ever told her. She wouldn't have understood. She wouldn't have understood, and I feared too much judgment. Yeah. Um, but I knew that... And oh, and, you know, and when I did go back, I'm trying to think. I believe, I think I went back again that year, later, later in that year. I don't know if I was starting to not feel so great again, s- you know, starting to feel a little bit low. But there was a second sitting, a second three-day sitting with her that I recognized as a maintenance. Like, this

is a maintenance. This is keeping me up here. This is keeping my head well above water mentally and emotionally. Um, oh gosh, I hadn't even gotten into some, like, the physical stuff, the medical side of things, and the benefits that I had received. That was very unexpected. Such as? Um, so I had had many years of chronic reproductive problems. Um, cysts, numerous abdominal surgeries, explorative, um, surgeries to go in to remove cysts that wouldn't dissolve on their own, endometriosis. Um, you know, going through the, the horseshit that insurance policies make you go through. Do this, this, this, this, and this, and then maybe we'll give you a hysterectomy. Um,

and I rem- this had to have been, like, maybe literally day two of my f- initial settings, and It was, it was like something removed something from me. I remember the physical sensations. I... This is wild. I hope I can say all these things. No, of course. But it, um, it-- I remember it being like somebody pulled like iron hot rods out of my lower abdomen And first of all, I thought I was in trouble. I thought I was in, like, medical level trouble. But can I tell you that for, like, the next three years, my symptoms of endometriosis and cysts went completely away? Wow. No pain, no discomfort, regulated periods, no more cysts. And as you remembered... But it took all of those three years to really realize, you know, in years of going to, you know, annual doctor appointment for checkups to be like, "I'm good. I feel okay

And yeah, and so I, I think it was that. It was going in to do the, at, at then, that same year, going back to do another three days of sessions, um, to maintenance, and that's when I realized something was going on here, that this was keeping me mentally, physically, spiritually, and emotionally well. Mm. You know, and after kinda coming through the other side- Mm-hmm feeling better psychologically, feeling better physically, you know, overcoming your addictions, you know, and having your, your partner still struggling with recovery. Mm-hmm. Being on both sides of it, it had to feel hard to, to, to be able to kind of break through, but still see the person you love so much struggling. So hard. You know, as we were just sitting here talking, I remember there was, um, like a group chat between myself, him, and my practitioner, and I remember seeing in there a message that said, "I hope this helps her," or, "I hope this is the thing

that fixes her or helps her or something." Um, and no, the, the, the struggles that were going on behind closed doors that we didn't share with anybody, you know. And, um, and actually you had recently shared a, a story with us about somebody that you had helped that had had a meth addiction. And as you were telling that story the other day, I think it was yesterday- Mm-hmm I was sitting there saying, "I wish that was him," you know. Um, 'cause I, I guess I haven't mentioned it since being here, um, but he passed May 5th of 2021 of an overdose. Yeah. When, um, you know, I met you through Instagram. Yeah. And you were right at, and I, and I kinda discovered you right at, you were kinda at the beginning of a grief journey. Mm-hmm.

You know, and grief is, uh, it's a lot like addiction. It's, it's something that the general public is very curious about, doesn't understand yet, you know? Mm-hmm. 'Cause that's the thing is, unless we check out early, at some point, deep grief is something that we're all going to go through. Yeah. Do you wanna talk about that journey at all? Yeah, I can. And it's wild. We-- I just had a conversation earlier today that this isn't something that I haven't talked a lot about. Um, I've cocooned myself in my grief journey. Um-

Being a person in recovery, both personally and working in the industry, and having a spouse that struggles with their sobriety is not an easy reality. There are two truths that I had to hold, um, and it was not an easy reality to live within. Um, and his passing Nobody, nobody ever thinks that their spouse is gonna pass. Nobody ever thinks that their loved one is going to be the one to overdose. It's always s- somebody else that you hear about. You know, in, in these years of s- 17 years of being in recovery, lost a lot of people, a lot of really special people. People that felt unnecessarily, you know, lost their life, lost their struggle with this. And to see and have to experience everything that

happened and transpired leading up to his passing today feels really f- really unnecessary, that none of it ac- none of it had to happen. Um, but it did. And I went into-- I went to a cocoon. I went to an isolation when Darren died. There was shame. I was carrying shame. I was carrying guilt. Guilt was placed on me. Shame was placed on me. I internalized all of it. I felt responsible. I had people with opinions that also thought I was responsible, that I didn't help the situation. Maybe not fully responsible, but that I had not helped and that I had contributed to his passing. Um-

And as much as I kept it quiet all the years of relapse that happened under our, on, in our home, um, I kept it quiet out of shame and guilt. Nobody that is professional in this industry wants to say, "My spouse is struggling and using again." Um, you don't wanna tell your friends that 'cause everybody's gonna tell you the same thing. "Jesse, get far away." You know, 'cause in recovery, you know, if you have two people that are in recovery and one goes out, everybody automatically thinks that you're getting ready to follow. And through, you know, grief has been one of the most powerful transformational journeys that I've been on, and I'm still on it. I'm still on it, and I don't know if it's ever going to stop. I don't think... Grief isn't something that goes away. The transformation that grief puts you through doesn't just go away. I don't know, you know, we grieve because we love so much. Yeah. And it's almost

like for the grief to go to way, to go away almost means like for the love to go away. Yeah. You come to learn and understand that you have the capacity to hold the deepest of grief and, and, and the deepest of love simultaneously in the same heart space, and it still blows my mind sometimes. You know, 'cause my grief, my grief for him will take me to my knees still to this day. But I turned inward. As much as I was isolating and I turned into a hermit, um, I felt like I didn't wanna have to give an explanation of my grief. I didn't wanna have to give an explanation of my love, our love, our life, his choices, my choices. But I didn't realize what was happening was I was being positioned to go into another inward journey, a journey that I literally had to go inside for soothing and comfort because it didn't feel safe enough to do it outwardly

Family and friends go away. It's really wild. When somebody passes, it is really wild how quiet the room gets. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's too uncomfortable for them? I do. I do. I, I mean, I think, I think we have a society and a culture that doesn't... was never taught how to grieve, that grief was just something that, um, happens during the funeral, and then you just, you go home. You don't talk about it. It's, you don't sit around the, the table and, um, talk about your grief and your heartache and what that means to miss your person or your family members or friends that have left. So I don't think a lot of people actually know how to grieve. It doesn't feel safe enough to do that because emotions are... they're, they're too big with grief. So we put them on a shelf, and we put them over here and get back to what we were doing. But I

also think it, there's shame and guilt in there. I think there's shame in grief. You know, it's interesting because in our culture, we're so removed from death, you know. And someone will pass away, you know, and then authorities take over, and then we show up to the, the funeral- Right get a small viewing, and then it's over, and then everybody's expected after a few days to go back to work and, you know. And it's just, death in our culture is very quick, and a lot of people aren't even given the opportunity to think much about it because everything's just go, go, go. Yeah. You know. I agree. Yeah. And it's, um... I, I guess I grieved out loud in private.

Um, and it didn't-- It's weird because I, even sitting here thinking about it, it felt like nobody could help hold that weight. It felt too heavy, and it felt like a burden to ask somebody else to help me hold it. Felt lonely. Yeah. Where the hell did we learn that? You know? Mm-hmm. Where do you learn that? You know, just having your, your human basic emotional needs met, but it felt like a burden, so it was easier to tuck in. What did you feel like you could have used at that time from someone else? Mm. Just to not be alone. It wasn't, it's not even, it wasn't even conversation. Even to this day, it's not even just conversation. It's, uh, not having to be alone, being witnessed with other, by other human beings to just let you feel what you feel. So not even really to be comforted, just not to be outcast. Yeah, 'cause there are no words. I have, I've searched for them.

I have searched for the words that would heal the ache, and there is none. There's not. Um, but it also... You can see how uncomfortable people get if you were to start talking about your grief. They get really uncomfortable 'cause they don't know what to say. Mm-hmm. It's not their fault that they don't know what to say. Um, but they also feel like... I think we live in a culture that wants to fix. Quick fix. Put a Band-Aid on it. Quick, quick. Oh, shit, there's a leak. Clog the pl- you know, plug it up. Yeah. People wanna fix things, so when they see somebody in discomfort and they don't know how to help somebody regulate, they just wanna fix it. They don't know what to do. They wanna fix it because it makes them feel uncomfortable. Yes, it makes them uncomfortable. Yeah. People are afraid to say their name 'cause they don't want you to get sad. Or when... These days, I-- Every now and

then out of the blue, if I get a text message from, you know, one of the guys that he worked with or, you know, a mutual friend or a family member that sends me a picture that I've never seen of him, it lights up my day. I love that. Or if somebody were to send me a message or call and share a story with me about him I'd never heard before, that brings my heart joy. Like, that's the-- keeps him alive, you know? Um, it doesn't make me sad. And sometimes maybe if something does make me sad, that's okay, but I think people are so afraid to say something to trigger your sadness or trigger you into that space, like you said, that makes them uncomfortable because of the way that you respond. And it's, um... It

has been a wild ride. Hmm. I questioned. I had, like, an existential crisis. You know, your spouse dies, and you say, "Who am I?" Because you realize so much of your identity had been wrapped up in being a wife, being a family, being a mother, that their children has a father. And then all that's gone in the blink of an eye, and you're like, "Who the hell am I?" Mm-hmm. I read a story once of a man who lost his wife. They were young. And it, it had been, I think, about three years or so, and he was telling this story as, uh, as much as he loved her, he was talking about how this grief journey was honestly one of the best things that had ever happened to him, es- especially in terms of self-development. Mm. What does that mean?

'Cause it is so hard to, for a person that's not been there to wrap their head even around the meaning of that. Yeah. I think it, um, it asks you... It doesn't ask you, it demands of you to, um, bend and not break. Not to be strong, but to understand what it means to be resilient, um, to really understand what endurance means, just a, a, a mental and emotional capacity. Um, seeking, seeking something to soothe or bring comfort or hope to something that feels hopeless. It almost feels like a perpetual Groundhog Day of the worst day of your life in those early, early days of grief, even those early years. Um- Did it feel like a struggle not to get back on the meds? Or was that not... Was that something that even came into your mind? It definitely came into my mind. It definitely came into my mind, but I also, I think that I was waiting for, like, my, my, my human condition

to give out, and that unless the floor was giving out, I was not going back that way. And it's really interesting that you bring it up this way, because the way that it segs way- segues into just the last, like, three years, 'cause it's, it was five years this, the beginning of this month. That made it five years that he's gone and I had, um, I had tried to set up, um, times to meet with my practitioner down in Miami. But now I was a single mom, one income household. I was trying to jumpstart my career into something bigger and bigger and bigger so it could be more sustainable on a financial level. I was swamped under unsurmountable amount of debt. There were days where what was in the fridge had, it had to work until the next payday. It had to work, and I watched my kids eat more than I did,

and that was just our reality at that, for a period of time, and I wanted relief so badly because I was spiraling. The last thing I wanted to do was pick up a drink, pick up a drug, or pick up a prescription Those were three absolutes, 'cause in grief, there are n- not many absolutes except for your partner is gone. Um, but those were my three absolutes. No prescriptions, no antidepressants, no drugs, no alcohol. Just don't do those three things, Jesse, and you'll be okay. Mm-hmm. Um, and for the last three years, we, we hadn't been able to, like, connect. Our, our schedules just wouldn't-- They just weren't working. And for me to be away from my, my girls and my whole full household and animals and work was just not a reality. Um, and I was seeking within

my area somebody to serve me, and it didn't feel safe I didn't, I didn't have enough, hmm There, there wasn't enough concrete evidence there that made it feel safe to sit with somebody. Not that I thought, not that anybody was harming anybody or that anything was being done wrong. But something intuitive. There was something in there that I was like, "Eh, I can't." And I, I mean, this is gonna sound weird, I feel like I was cheating on my practitioner- Mm-hmm because we had sat through so much together for so many years, you know? Well, I mean, it's a- Yeah you know, when you, when you start down that journey, especially with kambo, it's a very intimate process. Extremely. You know? And you do develop a relationship with your practitioner. Mm-hmm. You know, because it's not, it's not like just, okay, I'm in Santa Fe this weekend, where it's a local chiropractor- Right I can go and get adjusted. Yeah. And it- it's such a

deeper, more intimate process, and once, once you've had that experience, it- it's really hard to just have that experience with anybody. Yeah. Yeah. I trusted her with my life. I still do, you know? Um, extremely intimate. It's like she knows everything. She's seen me at, uh, all of the vulnerabilities that, uh, kambo brings to the session, you know? Um- And I think I had been going back and forth with coming to Kambo School for some years now, and upon not being able to make our schedules work and knowing that literal years were passing between my last sessions, um, I think I, I just surrendered because this hasn't been easy. You know, even five years after he's passed, my heart is still is broken in a million pieces, but it's, it's held together with my resilience now, you know. And, you know, a connection, you know, that is-- far exceeds, um, actual physical words, you know. He's closer than he has, has ever been even though

he's not right here. And but I, I felt, I felt a few things that pulled me to come here. Um, one of them was obviously so that I could help maintain my mental and emotional health and my physical health, um, and the other- Here being Kambo School. Here being Kambo School. Yes. Yeah, I've lost count what day we're on, but- yeah, here being Kambo School. Um, and so, you know, of course, I wanted to, uh, be able to learn how to self-administer because somebody that I trusted was far, too far away that I couldn't arrange it for years on, you know, going on three years. Um, I wanted there to be a safe space for others, and I feel an important piece of being able to have this available and safe to people in the recovery community

That feels important to me. It doesn't have to be a secret. I'm tired of, I'm tired of keeping it as a secret. I don't wanna feel shame around this, or guilt, or judgment. Um, and it felt like the time was now. It did. It felt like... And the time was not now. Trust me, the logistics of getting out here for this length of time was not n- no, no easy task. Um, but obviously anything that we make a priority, we can figure it out, and so I made it a priority. Well, you made the decision to come to Kambou school. Once that decision was solidified in your brain, what was going on? How were you feeling? You know, it's funny. People asked me those same questions leading up to this. "Are you getting cold feet? Are you nervous? Are you this?" I had never been so solid in a decision, and especially in these last five years of my grief journey, to feel solid with

my whole heart. Not just my whole heart, my whole mind. Like, every piece of it made sense logically, emotionally, mentally. Um, I couldn't wait to get here. It felt right. It felt good. It felt like answering a call again, and I just, I have so much respect for this medicine. So much respect. Um, I couldn't wa- I couldn't wait to get here. I was like a kid on Christmas. You know, as a Kambou client, we, we, we kinda have a fundamental base knowledge of Kambou, and we know what it's done for us, right? And you're about halfway through the school now. Mm-hmm. But of what you've learned about Kambou so far, how, how... Does it make you feel different about this modality, or does it just kind of affirm things that you're already feeling? It affirmed things. It, it, it affirms things.

I, f- on day two, I, I had a little breakdown. I had to phone a friend because I had a little breakdown because, you know, I, I came here with, um, a skill set and, and knowledge that I have very hard belief in. Like, yes, brain chemistry, biology And we got through that day two. I said, "Holy shit, I don't know anything." Yes, I know things. I'm not minimizing, you know, what I do know, but there was such an important piece that had been missing for so long that, you know, I kinda went down this little mental spiral. It was a dark alley I never should've went down 'cause it was just bullshit, um, that I had been doing people a disservice because I didn't give them the full picture. Mm. I wasn't giving them... I had not extended my research beyond what I was taught

when it came to biochemistry, amino acids, peptides. And I say peptides because we never got any training in peptides. Now it's a fad type of thing, you know, um, and people think because I work with amino acids, people were coming to me saying, "Oh, do you, you know, do you, you have a link on peptides?" I said, "I don't have a link on peptides." Mm. "I don't do peptides." So it, it expanded my, my knowledge in a way, and I understood it. I tracked every single word, every second, every syllable of every word and description that we have gone through on the scientific side of this, and has, it blown my mind. I'm like a, I'm, I'm like an information geek and a science geek, and I've, I've never been more excited- Mm because I started to connect more dots on other things to research, and specifically how the, you know, certain things at genetic levels to help with mental health and addiction. Like, I'm,

I've never been more excited. You know, kembo is generally viewed as just a cleanse or a detox- Yeah and, uh, whi- which is something that a lot of people are looking for, you know? But, but it's kind of also viewed as this magical cure-all detox, and once you begin to discover... So, you know, in that understanding, when people come to kembo, it's more of kind of a hope and a prayer. Mm-hmm. We've tried everything else, now we're just throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. And then when you kinda come on this side of it and you start learning the ins and outs of what this medicine actually is, Amazonian medicine, and, uh, and then you realize that it's something s- so much more beautiful, so much more complex. And in knowing that, you know, it helps us understand, okay, it's not, we're not cleansing ourselves- Mm-hmm into good health. Like, we are actually engaging with the biology of our body and teaching

the body how to heal itself again. Yeah. That's exciting. That's so exciting. I think it's, um, it's, it's really beautiful to know- I'm glad I didn't know all the things that I didn't know before getting here. I'm glad that I came here and I learned everything that I'm learning right now. And be, to be able to share that information with others so that they can understand that their cells of their body can absolutely 100%, uh, go back to carrying on with their perspective duties, um, and reorganize and heal. You know, you change the terrain, you know, of your biology and your physiology, and anything can, can reorganize to heal. Um, and I think that going forward, even just, even just with w- like what's going on with, in, in the world, you know, and the trajectory into where we're headed, people have lost faith in modern medicine. Allopathic medicine is kinda getting a bad rap. They kinda did it to themselves. And, um,

yeah, I'm still trying to really let everything actually sink in. Uh, my, the notes on the side of my m- manual and my notepad, um, I'll have to translate everything I'm writing down, um, going forward for just connecting my own dots to different applications for this. And thinking of, you know, the various people to be like, "Oh, can we have a vaccine of the forest?" And I'm like, "There's so much more than that." Yeah. There's so much more than that. Um- I, I, I feel, I feel lucky to be here. I feel lucky to be here You know, Campbell's primarily comprised of bioactive and neuropeptides. You know, a peptide being a short chain of amino acids. Now, even though you don't necessarily train or work in peptides, this has to be exciting because it kind-- it, it aligns with what you do in your day job. Yes. Because your, your expertise is in amino acids. It is. Mm-hmm. Let's get into that. Wow. Um, yeah.

So I, I was in, uh, one-- first year of my recovery, and I was, uh, working at the treatment center that I went to. I was the client that didn't go away. And they were like, "Let's just give her a job." Um, so they put me into, um, a space in the treatment center called The Healing Center, and that's where you essent- That's exactly what it was. Um, and so that's where we had all of our nutrients and aminos and different body work services. You know, the true- truly holistic, you know, working with the, with the body part. And there's, there's a term for this, for, for, for working with amino acids and these certain types of, uh- Oh, like a bionutritionist? Bionutritionist. Mm-hmm. Bionutritionist. Um, so I went on to get a certification, um, which I don't have higher education, and sometimes that shocks people because I don't, I don't have a college education. Attempts, uh, didn't succeed. Um, I was busy doing other

things. Um, and so I trained under, um, the training of a guy by the name of Dr. Charles Gant, who was a pioneer in the '80s for... He was a psychiatrist. And this is inspired by what you experienced at the recovery. Yes. Yep. Um, and so I went through and I trained and mentored under his training, um, through somebody else that was at the treatment center. Uh, Dr. Gant's no longer with us, but, um... I mean, he was a psychiatrist, and he went off the beaten path, and he found that amino acids were rebalancing brain's biochemistry for addiction and mental health.

Better, with more sustainability than psychiatric medication. And so he was really going against the grain. Really going-- And he was called crazy. It's funny we say off the beaten path, but let food be thy medicine is a concept for thousands of years. Yes. Yes. And, you know, and at the time, uh, the treatment center had, um, uh, an opportunity to also study under something called the National Institute for Holistic Addiction Studies, to where we could get our Certified Holistic Addictions Professional certification. That's interesting, because that doesn't come up on the first page of looking for rehab centers. No. No. Why would it? Why would it? No, of course not. Um, so that started my journey of collecting certifications. Um, I was so interested, I was so dialed in, and I understood it, and that was part of, um, what made it, I guess, easy to pursue, was that it made sense. It made so I could literally see the rebalancing of the biochemistry in somebody's

body with just the thought of creating a protocol and projecting it. You know, like, it-- With- and I'm talking, like, in my mind, creating a protocol for somebody based on their brain type, and it's like I could see their biochemistry switch. I could see what they were lacking, see what they were needing, and I, I, I had so much fun with it. Like, it literally, it was like, "This is a blast." So, but before we get too far into it, so you're going, you're going through the certification process of bionutrition. Mm-hmm. Like going through Kambo school, you're learning things that are, that are becoming really exciting, that you- Yes. What, what are, what are the things that you're learning that are starting to excite you? Like, this is, I found something here. Um, I think the biggest thing was that there... Uh, remember, remember, um, remember the D.A.R.E program? Remember the frying pan? Oh. Yes. Remember the ad, this is your brain on drugs, right?

Oh. What I was learning was that that doesn't have to be, uh, that doesn't have to be how the story ends. Um, that the brain can heal. That we can learn how to heal the brain. We can learn how to heal the body. We can change patterning. We-- It's kind of like when, when, when the light bulb burns out, do we-- we don't throw the lamp out. Put a new light bulb in to make a connection. Hmm. That's what was fascinating to me, was that there w- there was an ability in a way that was not rocket science. This, this stuff, it might sound complicated to people sometimes. It's not. It is extremely simple. It's coming to understand how the brain works and how neurotransmitters work, what they are, how we depleted them, how we ended up where we did, why we found the coping skills that we did, why we have the emotional challenges and the mental challenges that we do. Coming to understand

that allopathic medicine is just a band-aid and, in fact, probably har- harming you more. On the brain level and the neurotransmitter level. But the beauty was that something could be done about it quickly, naturally So would you say it's like a formula if you know the right numbers to plug in? Yeah, it's really easy, actually. There's four brain types. Of course, things can get a little more complicated. It's kinda like looking at an astrology chart. You can know what your sun, moon, and, you know, rising sign are, but you've got aspects and transits, and you have all these things that can make it as unique as a thumbprint. Um, but that's why you have somebody like me, you know, to help with the, uh, the individual, you know, uh, protocols that would work specifically for somebody. But, um, and it comes to changing your lifestyle, and it comes to adapting to a commitment to heal. They could give you all the amino acids and the

nutrients in the world, but if your mindset is garbage, you're gonna feel like garbage. And so it's, um, it's a lifestyle. It's teaching a lifestyle, and it's watching the light come back on in somebody's eyes in a short amount of time And it's sustained, and it's lasting, um, and it's not just a Band-Aid. Like this-- We're not... I can't say, you know, I can't cure anything, quote-unquote. Can't say that in holistic medicine. Um, but it sure as hell looks like it. Yeah. So what else are you beginning to study to complement the bionutrition, or is there anything else? Oh, oh gosh, yes. Um, so and then I had gotten into, um... You know, a lot of c-clients that find their way to me are either coming out of treatment that, or clients that are on antidepressants, uh, mood stabilizers, anti-anxiety medications that do not want to be on them any longer, and so I transiti-transition them off of those medications. Or you have people that

are in long-term recovery or have had longstanding mental health that has been resistant to traditional methods and therapies. Uh, people in long-term recovery that say, "There's gotta be something more. There's no freaking way I'm ten-plus years clean," or whatever it might be, "and this is it. This is really how I have to feel." Um, you know, in pharmacology, there's a specific test called GeneSight. GeneSight will test you at a genetic level to see and, and pump you out a report that will say, "Here are the pharmaceuticals and psych-- uh, psychiatric drugs that are a match to your genetics." Um, it's brilliant. I mean, I think it's a brilliant tool. Psychiatry is the only practice of medicine that actually doesn't study or image the actual thing that they're treating. Which is wild. Isn't that wild? You get a broken arm, you get an X-ray. You have a, a mental health or a diagnosis of something or depression, they don't image your brain. I mean, you can,

but- Yeah, yeah ...don't. I-I've even heard in, in certain cases now or certain studies, they're saying actually to even prescribe the, the correct Antidepressant that, that's going to tackle the problem in your brain wherever your issue is. There has to be some type of imaging scan, otherwise we're just kind- Mm we're kind of taking a guess at it. True. Yeah. Yeah, we're just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks. Which is insane, because I've even seen companies now where you can get a, you can do a 15-minute just questionnaire online- Mm-hmm and get a lifelong drug prescribed to you. Yes. Yeah. It's, um, it's really wild. It still blows my mind. And it's, it's really dangerous, and it's not improving lives, and it's not improving the quality of lives. Well, if it was- Yeah there would be no need for someone like you. That's true. There'd be no need- Yeah for someone like me. You know, and I'm not, you know, I'm always

careful talking or, about these medications because for some people, like, it, it was the thing that stabilized them. Yes. You know? Mm-hmm. It was the thing that helped them function to where they could kinda... Like you were saying, you need 90 days to take the edge off- Mm-hmm get myself to a functioning baseline- Mm so I can show up into society again. Right. And I know there are people that have experienced that, that have gone that route. Mm-hmm. And, and it was, it, it was a, uh, it was a godsend for them, right? But two things can be true at the same time. Yeah. Even though there is that, also, I see, I have seen hundreds of people that, that come to me for, we'll just say psychological relief. Mm. And they say the only thing in the world that they want is to somehow to try to get off of these medications. Right. Not that they didn't work. Right. Initially- They did their job

initially, they did their job. Mm-hmm. But now they don't. Now they say, "I just feel numb. I'm unable- Right to cry. I'm unable to laugh." Yeah. "I'm just, I, I exist, you know?" Mm-hmm. "And I just feel like-" You know, the, the me is so far Mm-hmm. Well, there, it creates such a disconnect. You know, we're at, the human experience is to experience a full range of emotions, not to turn the volume down on this one or that one or all of them at the same time. You know, we're, we're, we're here to experience the human experience. Um, but when the lights are out, when you look in someone's eyes and you see that the lights are out, but they're smiling, the lights are out. The dishes might be done, the kids have clean clothes, the meal's being cooked, the job, you know, you're getting to your job, you're doing everything, but, but the lights are out. Well, you know they're hollow inside. Hollow. Yeah.

And, you know, and I agree. You know, I don't, I don't wanna say that there isn't, um, a use for psychiatric medications. There, uh, there, there absolutely is a, a, a time and a place for people that get the full benefit that they need from it. Um, and it does its job. But, um- And what a lot of people- it's not an end all Yeah. And what a lot of people don't realize when they, when they, you know, when they're trying to make the decision to take these medications is that these medications were designed to never be on longer than 18 months. Mm-hmm. But they're so... Due, due to the, the physical and the psychological withdrawals, they're almost impossible to get off. Yeah. I mean, that's a, that's a whole other podcast right there too. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Um, you know, with the, um... So w- some of the things that brought me further into carving out my niche, um, I talked about the genetic

test, the GeneSight. Um, I utilize that as a really brilliant tool, not to... Obviously, I can't prescribe anybody anything. Um, but there is a way to essentially reverse engineer that, because what it does, it brings back a report of what kind of genetic mutations may be in place, which we're looking at enzymes that we're producing or not producing. Um, we're looking at, you know, breaks in, uh, conversion chains, which this tests really brilliantly, which they did not make this test th- for somebody to do this with it. Um, but I love when I g- have a client that has a doctor that is willing to refer for this test, because we can reverse engineer and find the missing minerals. We can find the missing enzymes that are happening in the body. We can look at how the body is metabolizing things. Essentially, it's an imbalance- Yeah that you're trying to- Right to balance. And so I am so excited when I get home to take,

take all of the knowledge and my skill set and deep dive into these peptides- Mm and find some things that Maybe we don't know yet. That's exciting. That is exciting. 'Cause I feel like there's- Yeah there's always more to learn. You know, that- There is as, as important as science is, you know, a lot of times we're left to do our own science and research because, you know, once you reach a, a certain Place in the professional field, you know what I mean? It, it's more about publishing papers and- Yeah accolades and tenure, you know? And, and, and more of having a voice rather than going back, looking at the way we've done everything for the last 15, 20, 30, 40 years and saying, "Hey, actually, this could be done better." Yeah. We... and, you know, we could humble ourselves and be like we didn't know everything, but now that we know better, it's important to do better. But un- unfortunately, unfortunately, that's not the

way it goes. Yeah. And it does take people, you know, with not a higher education- Yeah but, but just unwavering passion- Yeah to, to actually find the, the information that, that so many people are looking for. Yeah. And you know, and the statistics aren't changing. No. The statistics are not changing. In fact, I would say- They're getting worse it's getting worse. It is getting worse. Mm-hmm. You know, we work with a lot of veterans, and, you know, a lot of people have heard the statistic 22 a day,

22 vets that take their life a day. And, you know, uh, the grunt style foundation's doing a lot to combat this, but a lot of people think this is pe- th- these guys are killing thems- or these men and women are killing themselves to a s- from what they experienced through the, the fog of war, coming back, you know, having witnessed all these atrocities. And yes, for some people, that, that is a part of it, but for a lot of people getting out of the service, you know, what, what's not talked about is even how getting out of something like the military, whether you went to combat or not, in itself can be traumatic because you've ingrained yourself into a culture and environment, right? And I don't, I don't wanna use the word brainwash 'cause I don't think it's a brainwash, but you, you, you go through this, um- You've been conditioned perhaps con- yeah, you've been conditioned to exist in this club. Mm-hmm. And

like when I was in the service, you know, o- once you get out, it's... You know, when you're in the service, it's like your bills are paid. You're, you have your friends. You're... But now it's like you gotta figure out rent, and you gotta figure out a job. You gotta figure- Mm-hmm. It's a, it's a transition. Yeah. It's a tran- And a lot of people have... It, it's challenging for them. Mm-hmm. I've witnessed this. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, the, the only thing that's really offered, the only help that's really offered by the VA, the Veterans Affairs, is basically you're having problems with stabilizing your mood, well, here's a bucket of pills. Without any informed consent. Mm-hmm. And these pills and, and, and it's, I hate to say, but a big part of what attributes to these, you know, people taking their own lives is getting on these psychological pills that are disrupting their brain chemistry in such a severe way. Mm-hmm. They don't know

how to manage it, and not only that, they don't know who to turn to. Yeah. There's a lack of resources, lack of direction. Like you said, that lack of informed consent. Mm-hmm. And, you know, and I think a lot, there's a lot of, um, you know, some people will say desperation is a gift, but that's not the case for everybody. Mm-hmm. Desperation as a gift doesn't always translate into, uh, radical change for somebody, or that, that being the leverage and motivation to, uh, seek radical change to make something better, make something different, to get a different outcome. Sometimes it just means taking desperate measures. Correct. Yeah. So

when you start working in this new field of study for yourself- Mm-hmm what, what are, are you immediately going into the field of recovery, working with, you know, former addictions, working with people trying to get off mood stabilizers? So it's st- still definitely gonna be, um, my niche. I feel I'm, I'm really rooted in understanding that m- my service in the recovery community, um, you know, for addicts and alcoholics is, it's not something that I'm ever going to go far away from or thr- toss away. Um- But when you first started- When I first- into the bionutritionist- Mm-hmm is these, are these the environments your clients are coming from? Yes. Okay. Yes. Yeah. So- Yeah and then how quickly are you starting to see change in them? Oh, with nutrients and aminos? Mm-hmm. Oh. Just this, with the, the, the- Mm-hmm the gene site testing and the- Oh nutrients and aminos. Um- Like all of this combined together. Now you're actually applying it to practice.

I mean, you can see the lights turn on in under 23 minutes with the right amino acids for somebody that has been brain typed. What? Yes. The brain responds in 23 minutes to amino acids. targeted properly. I mean, I just can't, like, I just can't throw tyrosine at you and expect, you know, the, the benefit that tyrosine would give somebody. Uh, you know, we'd have to brain type. But once you're able to lock... There's only four brain types. It's not that complicated. Uh, there's four neural pathways that we work with, um, and we're targeting four major neurotransmitters here. Um, and of course, there's many, many, many others, you know. Um, but within 23 minutes you can see a physical literal shift in somebody's physical body. You can see their l- the, the literal light in their eyes. Their breathing slows down, their shoulders drop from their ears,

and they can take a breath. You know, the- there's, there's a lot of, quote-unquote, "holistic certifications" out there. Mm-hmm. And, you know, es- especially now where everybody has a course, and these things are a dime a dozen. Mm-hmm. But to actually go through this study and then actually s- when applied, see- Correct the effects of it happen so quickly, like this had to be... You had to be doing cartwheels inside. Well, yeah. And, and it happened for me, and I think that that's what the hook, line, and sinker was.

So you already, you already- I was a mess yeah, yeah. I was a mess. Um, but really, so what, what's actually happening here, though, so it does take 21 days to, to reboot, if you will, 'cause what we're doing is we're restoring and we're re- rebooting the brain's biochemistry with these nutrients. Takes 21 days to reorganize things. It takes another 21 days to set it into the concrete. Takes another 21 days for it to actually become something where neuroplasticity has come into play, and we have created new neural pathways, and we've started to restore our neurotransmitters. So typically

I like to work with somebody for a minimum of 90 days. Minimum of 90 days. Like let's just, let's, let's let the cement dry on this new structure that we've created and these paths of remembering in your biochemistry, in your biology, in your physiology, where everything's working together. 'Cause we're not just working with their brain 'cause we have to work with their gut too. It's a whole other story 'cause that's the second brain. So much is happening within, within the gut, obviously, so that's where we're talking, you know, on the nutritional side of things and really having a lifestyle commitment. And it's not easy 'cause it requires discipline and consistency, and that's hard. The human condition, sometimes discipline and consistency are the two hardest things that we can manage to accomplish in a day, regardless of what it is. Um, the thing that really fascinates me with bringing in the Kambo piece to this is I cannot wait to collect the data to see how

that affects that 30, 60, 90 day process. And, um, I'm, I'm all about the data. If, if I can't supply data with something, if it can't be measured, not that I don't think it's worth talking about or looking into, but I'd rather round file it if it can't be measured. Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm really excited because there, there are consistencies, uh, even at genetic levels and genetic mutation levels and, you know, breaks in genetic expression that are common in certain mental health conditions. I don't even like calling them conditions anymore, but certain, uh, mental health conditions, uh, people with- Mental health imbalances mental health imbalances, yeah. Um, people with a history of addiction and alcohol, alcoholism. Um, there are consistencies there at that genetic level, and I'm, I'm stoked. I'm over the moon and cannot wait to start to see what this data is gonna look like. I can't wait to see what you come back with. I can't wait, and it's, um... You

know, I've had people ask me, like-- And, and I even, I had a little breakdown myself. I had a really hard-- This, this last winter was really rough for me. We got busier, um, through the holiday season, and it was rough for me. My heart was really weary. My heart's been really heavy and It, it wears on you when you see people unnecessarily overdosing, unnecessarily being failed by the systems that they put their trust in with their lives. Um, and I was really where I was ready to completely walk away and say, "I can't do this anymore." I can't not do this. It's the- It just has to come from a different avenue, a different vehicle. You know, when you get into the work that you and I have found ourselves in,

we never... You know, we get into it r- initially just because we're so passionate. We're excited about what it can do- Mm-hmm for others, you know. And, um, the, the part that we don't talk about a lot are the ones that don't make it. Yeah. You know, and it's just... Especially when, you know, you've-- you have so much hope for them, and they've come so far, and they're-- you can tell they're, they're fighting the battle. Mm-hmm. And but, you know, especially, a- and there's so much confusion, so much just where do I turn, what's working, what's not working. And when someone doesn't make it, you know, whether it's overdose, whether it's suicide, and it does-- Sometimes we ask ourselves if we have the strength to keep going, to keep seeing people try. You know, it's the, the ones that make it we're so happy for. The ones that don't are the ones that stick with us. Yeah. You know, and, and, and at times there's--

we, we kinda tally those up, and it's, uh, it's a lot to sit with- Yeah at times. But as you said, sometimes we wonder if we have the strength to keep going, but then it's like I'm not sure we have the strength to quit. Yeah. I find-- I, I think in the last few years, though, you know, the, my trusted people in my circle that, you know, I talk to vulnerably about how I'm feeling, um, a, a few of them this year reminded me, "You say this every year, Jesse. Every year you say, 'That's it. I'm done. I can't do this anymore.'"

And then all it takes is that, that one, that one client, that one human being, let's not call him a client, that one human being- Mm-hmm that in just in a short amount of time from saying, "I'm quit. I can't do this," and that hope is restored, and that, that fire is ignited again, and it's fanned- Mm-hmm and you're-- and I'm excited again, and I feel good about what I'm doing and hopeful again. And if nothing else, you have to do it for the one. And, and that, that's the, the one is the one that matters. That's, that's it. I mean, it's-- it only takes one. It only takes one. And, and I know that I shared with you already the deciding factor to come to Kambo School was, you know, receiving information that a repeat client for seven years, I've seen this person's name show up on a census. And but, but this year it was, it was a notice of, of death, and

that was my d- that was the day I clicked, "I'm coming," and I messaged you. I said, "I'm coming." It was that moment right there. I said, "No more. I can't continue to be a spoke in a broken wheel." And not, I'm not saying this is gonna save everybody's life. I'm not saying it's gonna make my job any easier, that being on the front lines is gonna get any softer, 'cause it's not. It's not a soft spot to be. But there's potential for something amazing there. Yes. It's going to change somebody's life, and that feels good. I have chills head to toe right now just saying that out loud. That excites me, and I'm excited to have my fire ignited again 'cause I don't like the feeling that it's gone out. That, that's, that's a tough space to sit in as somebody who's in service, you know? Um,

I d- I don't want my fire to feel like it's gone out. That doesn't feel good. Gotta keep going. This feels really good. So before we wrap it up- Okay. Well when I'm with a facilitator of anything, something I like to finish on is what's the most profound you know, recovery that you've seen or session that you, or, or comeback that you've seen? Like, what's something there that sticks in working with someone? Like somebody specifically with a specific instance or- Yeah, a specific ins- Specific if you can think of one. Yeah. I mean, I can think of a whole bunch because they come in many different shapes and sizes. I think the ones that are the most profound for me are... This is gonna sound so simple

It's when somebody, when somebody completes even just the 90-day program and they don't feel like they're broken anymore because they had been told that they have been broken their entire life at a mental and emotional level, that they're just broken and that they're dependent upon something else. Um, there, there's a, there's a, there's a lady, and I c- I, I can't help it, she reminded me of me the first time I ever saw her. She reminded me of... I was like, "Oh shit, there I go." Very similar situation. Young child at home, um, in her late 30s

completely messed, like just completely dismantled and ripped to pieces from the inside out. Um, had been through the recovery process over and over and over again. Get clean, relapse, get clean, relapse, get clean, relapse. Just couldn't get it and felt really, really broken, defeated, and was at that point of like, "I'm just a burden at this point. I'm a burden to my children. I'm a burden to you guys 'cause I keep showing up here." And she, she didn't wanna go the re- the amino route. That felt like too much work. Felt like a commitment, a level of commitment she couldn't say yes to. And she honestly, every, each time, "Yeah, I just can't do it. I'm not willing to do it. L- looks too expensive. Looks like too much commitment. I just, I can't do it. I'm not doing that." And she finally did.

And she has sustained long-term recovery ever since then. That was 12 years ago. Wow. In the data behind aminos coupled with recovery and, you know, uh, self-help therapy, whatever that might look like, whether it's meetings, therapists, support groups, long-term recovery beyond two years goes up to 80%. Today, our national rate is 2%. Wow. National 2% of somebody go through treatment stay clean and sober. Combine it with aminos, some self-help, some self-discovery and expansion, and you increase your long-term recovery beyond two years by 80%. Again, something most don't even know is possible. Ah. But to see somebody go from that statistic of 2% to

now she's in the 80% as well, that's available to everybody. That is not because somebody has money. That is not because somebody is special. That is not because somebody was at the right place or right time. That- it's available to everybody, and it's not talked about. For those dealing with addiction, uh, whether it's, you know, street narcotics or mood stabilizers, that, that are just feeling desperate and hopeless- Mm-hmm like there's no way out, what message do you have for them? Hmm. Oof, that's deep as I'm sitting here thinking about this

Mm. You are not exempt from recovery. You are not exempt for living a life worth living. You are not broken into a million pieces. You can be put back together You are not exempt from living Yeah, you're not that far gone Thank you for being here today, Jesse. Thanks for v- just being so vulnerable and sharing, you know, about your life. Um, I'm, I'm so grateful you're out there doing what you're doing. I'm incredibly excited to see, you know, how Campbell is gonna add into this whole mix. How can people find you that are looking for what you offer? So that's the million-dollar question for many, many, many years. Jesse, what's the name of your website? Um, I don't have one. Um, I've, uh, I've strictly gone through word of mouth, um, which is a blessing, uh, and I think that says a lot. But you can always reach me at recovery-- or I'm sorry, rhythminrecovery@gmail.com. Rhythminrecovery@gmail.com.

That's right, rhythminrecovery. Yep. Okay. You can find me there. Excellent. Yeah. Thanks for being here. All right. Thanks for having me.