From Prison to Plant Medicine | Chris Diamond’s Story

Chris, welcome to the show. Thank you, Jason. I appreciate you having me on. I'm excited about this one, man. You know, when I, I was reading through your application when you put it in to come to Campbell School, and I thought, "I wanna get this guy on a podcast." 'Cause you have a very unique story, uh, and I'm excited to dive into it. Um, so all these things pretty much kinda start the same way. It's just interviewing real people with real stories. So the question is: what are the events in your life that led you to this medicine path? Wow, that's a, that's a big question, man. And I think, um, probably really started, if you really go back, um, to the time I was probably about four or five years old. Uh, it's in the process of unpacking a lot of the things, those deep-rooted moments in your life and doing this work that almost brought this to the surface, and it took years

for it to even come, and it's a recent one that came. But my, um, father at one point, when I was a very young boy, about four or five years old, we were living in a little apartment in Yonkers, right on Bronx River Road, and I remember him whisking us out of that apartment. And I remember what time it was. Um, and one of the moments that stuck out to me was we ended up in a store. Uh, it was nighttime, and he told me to go get a toy, and I picked out this little Ghostbusters, like, toy, and it was this, like, purple rubber dude, and if you squeezed it, the eyeball popped out. And so that stayed with me, getting that toy, and it wasn't until later down in my life in some of this unpacking that there was an energetic imprint in that moment. And what we were actually doing was taking off and crossing state lines because, at the time, I

guess guys that my father was fixing horse races with were getting rounded up, and cases get cracking open that night. So he s- he grabbed us all, me and my mother, my sister. We took off. We're in the car. We're going on a little vacation, you know? So- I feel like all gangster stories start in Yonkers. Yeah. I feel like that's pretty common. Yeah. It's definitely the type of place that, uh, will breed a certain type of individual. Right. That's for sure. Yeah, so, uh, I remember getting that toy, man, and then it wasn't until, you know, years and years later that I started that imprint of whatever was going on energetically. That fight or flight was probably my first experience with that. And, you know, from there, it kinda just continued. My father was involved in a, in a lot of different things. Yeah, he was a bookie. Um, so I grew up in a lifestyle surrounded by a certain mentality and attitude that

bred me to be hardwired a certain way. How, how old do you think you were when you kinda started to realize your life's a little bit different? Um, well, I was kinda groomed, in a sense, to know that my life was different. You know, when I was a little kid getting dropped off at school, if there were things about, "Oh, you know, your-- bring your parents. You know, what, you know, what-- bring them in. Talk about what they do for work." "Oh, just tell everybody Daddy sells horse races." You know? So, you know, I was the only kid at school getting dropped off in, like, a tinted out Monte Carlo SS with-around the Saabs and the Volvos, you know? Um, so it was definitely-- We were always different. Um, but I- I kind of just grew up that way, so to me it was normal. You know, I couldn't really ever tell people what my father did. And then there was a point he took

me for a ride once and then explained to me what a bookie was and, you know, the whole thing. So he prepped me to keep my mouth shut at a young age. You know, you didn't go running around school saying those things. We always had a cover story. Um, but the, the cat was out of the bag when I was about 16 and, um, I was up in my bedroom with my buddy from down the street. We're playing Sega, and my mother appeared in the doorway and she was like, "Chris, you know, G- Greg has to go home right now." So instantly I'm like, "I didn't do anything," and I'm filing through my brain to figure out what I could have done in the last week or two that, you know, is catching up with me. Um, so, you know, we go back to playing the game. I'm like, "All right, Mom, in a minute." And next thing I know, I look over and there's

windbreakers coming into my bedroom. So the organized- Oh, wow. Yeah. So Organized Crime Task Force had, had raided the house, um, that I was then growing up in. So from all that horse race fixing when I was a little kid, there was obviously some money that was made at that time, and then we moved into a house about 15 minutes away from, from that apartment in Yonkers, uh, in a little town called Eastchester, which was a good upbringing, you know, at the time when the middle class still existed. It was like a blue collar kinda place. Um, and then the... I was there for about 10 years until I was 16 when the house got raided, and that's really when I think everything for me really took a big turn. Did you, did you ever... I mean, obviously you kinda know some of the things that are going on within your family, but did, did, like the house being raided, was that something that was

ever talked about? Like, was it potential that could happen? No, I guess you always kinda know what the potential is when you grow up like that. You know, like we call it paying your taxes, you know? It's like when, when you finally get pinched for doing whatever you do, and now it's time to pay the piper 'cause you've been skating for so long, so. It's just part of, you're not really thinking about it that much. Yeah, you just go. Yeah. You know, you just go. If you're worried about that, you're in the wrong business. Right. Gotcha. You know, you, you just continue on. And, um, you know, that was, that was hugely pivotal because, you know, my, basically my childhood home at that point, you know, we had to leave. They seized your bank accounts. They seized everything you own, so- Take the home? They take everything. Wow. Yeah, they take everything, so. With, with no intention of giving it back. Oh, absolutely not. Yeah,

you're not, you're never- Yeah. There was guys that have taken cases that were actually legitimately not guilty and still couldn't get their stuff back, so. Wow. It's a business, and that's what it's really based on. Wow. You know? Yeah. The whole, the whole criminal justice system is nothing but a business, and somebody who ended up on the inside of it, you know, I saw firsthand exactly, you know, what that looks like, and it's, it's crazy. It's a machine and a half, man. Yeah. Yeah. Um, by design. Absolutely. Yeah. There's no mistakes there in anything they're doing. Def- So you're 16, you get raided. Yeah, 16, um, I come out of my bedroom, I walk down the stairs, there's, you know, blue organized crime task race, task force windbreakers everywhere going through everything. Um, and one of them came up to me and, you know, at the time as a kid, I was 16, but he was like, "You know, if, if you wanna go to

a friend's house, you know, we won't be too long." You know, trying to smooth it over or pacify things. I mean, well, you know, I'm still my father's son, so like I'm thinking, "All right, this guy's letting me go in and out of the house right now." So I'm walking around the house, and I'm picking up the pink slips with all like the- Mm you know, the bets on them and the beepers and anything else I could find. Try to, try to cushion the blow. Yeah, as much as I can to my dad, you know? Yeah. So, and then I would walk down to my, my buddy's house, who was just up there playing video games with me, and I'd, you know, throw rocks at his window. He'd lower a basket down on an extension cord. Oh, wow. I'd put everything in. He'd pull it up. Wow. And I'd go back and take another trip, you know? Now, did it ultimately help the case? It

probably did not. Once they're kicking your door in, you know what I mean? They already got you. Yeah, they got what they need, you know? Now they're just trying to put the cherry on top. But, um, so yeah, so that, you know, that whole thing played out, and then we ended up having to move upstate The year after, you know, they published this in the newspapers at the time I was going to a Catholic high school, you know, all boys, that whole thing. My father did, you know, did the best he could to set me up the right way. Um, and- Did he, did he end up going to prison after that raid? He ended up having to do a short time in jail from that one. It took a few years for it to actually play out, you know- Mm-hmm like, you know, the cases going on- Right all that kind of stuff. So it took a little bit of time. It was right

after I graduated high school that he actually had to go in. Um, I think it was, like, two years or something like that. That's always kind of bizarre to me when you're just waiting. You know, you hear people that get their time, they go home, and they just kick it for... until their mom drops them off at the front door. Yeah. And it's just... Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely... You know, it, there's a couple different ways, though, to look at that 'cause if, if you're the one in it, if you can fight your case from the street, you know, in some situations they don't give you bail. Um, but if you can fight a case from the street, it actually looks better in front of the judge that you're not getting walked in there in a jumpsuit, you know- Right for appearances, things like that. Or again, some... Like, that's why those guys would be out waiting to go 'cause, uh, like on my state case,

I ended up doing the same thing. Like, I had a, I had a quarter million dollars bail, then they lowered. I, I told my family, like, "Don't bail me out." Like, just, just... You know what I'm saying? I'm, I'm going away. Yeah. So let's just, you know... Then when they, I went for a bail reduction, they gave me a much better bail. So I was like, "All right, let's do that, and then we'll fight the case." Gotcha. But the quarter million was a bit much. Um, yeah, we'll get to that part of the story too. Yeah. All right. So, so we're-- You just graduated high school. Uh, yeah, no. So this, at this time I'm a sophomore when the house- Okay got raided. Right. So then we move upstate, um, and we're staying with my aunt, and up in Monroe, like Monroe, the town of Monroe, a little bit. It's like a couple hou- like an hour north of the city. And so now I

have to go to this high school. So I go there, and of course I'm a new kid, you know, it's my junior year. And I played hockey growing up, so my father's like, "Oh, why don't you play hockey?" I didn't even w- I wanted no part of it, but my father talked me into it, so I went and played hockey. But there was kids on this hockey team that were bullies, so they were always picking on the younger kids, the underclassmen. They started doing it to me. So the last day of school before Christmas break, uh, after I've been putting up with bullshit from these guys since October, I was like, "You know what?" I was like, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna just start picking them off one by one, and then we're gonna find out," you know what I'm saying, "what time it is really." So then n- I was telling my father, he was driving me home one night, and I was telling him

what I was gonna do, and he's like, "Jesus Christ, please. We got enough problems right now." And I'm like, "No, Dad." So he talks me off the ledge that night, but I wake up just hot all over again, ready to go. So I walk into the school that morning. I find this kid, and without saying a word, I just beat the brakes off of this guy. Mm-hmm. Um, so I ended up fracturing a bunch of bones in his face. He had to have reconstructive surgery. Um, you know, ambulance at the school, cops at the school. So of course, that was my first felony charge at 16 years old. So at, at that time, I didn't recognize the amount of anger and how displaced I was by going through, you know, the raid, losing my house, having to change schools, all these things. It was just-- I was just kinda taking it in stride, you know, as it was going on and- And it was just

kinda quietly building. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know? And then when I grabbed this guy in the, in the hallway at school, you know, everything that had been pent up was just like, I just let it out. Came out, yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and like the plan was, you know, my brilliant plan at 16 years old and how I was gonna make, make all the, the wrongs right was I was gonna just go from him to the next one, to the next one. I was gonna pick off like four or five of them. Um, so that's the type of like- psychotic mentality I had- Mm-hmm at that time in my life. Like, these things poisoned my soul, you know what I mean? And I didn't even realize it. To me, it was just like, "All right, I'm just gonna go handle my business," and, you know, like never really registered that I was potentially gonna destroy some kid's life, you know what I mean? Uh,

you know, get, destroy the rest of mine, set myself on a bad path. Those things never came into the picture. And, um, so that was my first, you know, felony at 16. Uh, then we ended up moving back to Westchester, where I was able to go back to my s- old school for my final year, uh, which was good, but at that point, you know, my family was starting to obviously fall apart. You know, that kind of stress and things like that. Um, so my mother and my father were getting divorced my senior year. Um, my mom was seeing somebody, so she was kinda, you know, off doing her thing. Her and I were having a rough time also because of just the condition that I was in, you know? Like, I was basically unapproachable. Um, I was a live wire, you know what I mean? Do you feel like you were just kinda walking around hot, just ready to go? Oh, yeah. Just kinda

ready to tip at any time? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And it kinda just instilled in me this decision that I was just gonna live life doing whatever I wanted to do. Now, at the, uh... So you're, you're kinda coming to the end of high school here. Were there any plans? W- was there any consideration of college or anything like that? Or was it just like, "We're going into the street life"? Yeah, like I made that attempt. Like, I kinda s- 'cause everything that had gone on, I never, I never prepped for all of that like other kids did. You know, my family was hanging on by a thread, you know what I mean? So all that kind of stuff, you know, preparation, going, looking at schools, this and that. Plus too, when you, when you get completely wiped out financially, you know what I mean? Like- Yeah you know, options of any help from your family at that point have been seized. So it's off the

table, but I did end up g- getting into some, uh, college up in Boston, but I ended up not, you know, going up there. It was Wentworth Institute of Technology. I really had no plan. I didn't know what I wanted to do. Mm-hmm. Um, so that was one thing that was al- I look back was always a disadvantage to me, was that never knowing what I really loved, never knowing what I really wanted, what I was passionate about, you know? Not really having a trajectory. Exactly. You know, there was no path. Um, so then I was like screwing around in the local, uh, community college, like on and off. I'd usually probably just like enroll. I think I enrolled three different times, and then I would just stop going after like two weeks. You know what I mean? It was j- I was just completely floundering. Absolutely no direction. Um, so at that time is when I really just took to the street. And I

was like, "That's it." You know what I mean? Like, I'm, "Why am I wasting my time doing this? I can just go make money doing this. I can go make money doing that." I've already kinda had a pretty good education on how things work, you know what I mean? So it was- So you're about 19, 20 years old around this time? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it started out s- pretty simply, you know, like selling weed, you know, selling Vicodin and Klonopin and whatever. You know what I mean? Just kinda hustling, stuff like that. But- You know, once you start doing that, the natural progression is you start working out, out more middlemen and more middlemen, and you work your way closer and closer to the source, and then eventually, you know, in some people's trajectory, you can become a source. Mm-hmm. Um, so of course that's like the goal of every person that's in that business is- Get to the top get to the top.

Uh, like any business. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So, you know, and, uh, so I would do that and I would work on and off. It was always in the construction trades. Um, you know, I would always have different jobs for a while and, you know, again, what's the point of waking up every morning at 6:00 to go to work at the time you're making $150 or $200 a day if you're lucky- Mm-hmm you know, and when I can just hang out and, you know. So as a kid with no direction, you're not gonna put yourself... I wouldn't, I didn't at least, you know. Yeah. You're not gonna put yourself in situations that are gonna plan for your future because, you know, there's a lack of hope there in that lifestyle and in that mentality. You know, hope can't live in a mentality like that. Right. It's oil and water. You have to be hopeless to be doing those things, and that's exactly what I was. It's

kinda, it's, uh I mean, it's the jungle, right? Like it's, it's survival. It's, it's get to the top at whatever cost. Do what you have to do. Which is, it's a scary place to be at such a young age. You know? You maybe, you might not even realize it, how scary that is at that moment, but, uh, man, that's wild at, at so young. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, it was tough, you know, 'cause at the time then right around that age, my dad was gone. You know what I mean? So I was on my own completely. It wasn't... You know, I had no communication with my mother at the time, um, 'cause at one point she had come home with the guy she was dating. She didn't expect me to be at the house. You know, obviously I started threatening him, told her she's got about three minutes to get him out of this house or I'm gonna paint the walls with him,

were my words to my own mother. Yeah. You know? And so, you know, I don't say that as a, you know, like, you know, "Look at how great, tough guy I..." You know what I mean? I say that because it was a deplorable thing to say to your mother about... You know what I mean? It's just the toxicity that flowed through my blood at that time was, it turned me into somebody that, um, that I sit here today and I appreciate because it got me to where I am today, but at the same time, like I look at that person, I'm just like, "Man, what a shame." Like it's just, you know, what a, what a, what a dislikable individual really- Mm-hmm is what it comes, really comes down to, you know? And I, I had good friends and good family around me still, but, you know, I had that streak. So, you know, as you're getting into the street life and, you know, you're

making friends, doing this type of work, is that kinda starting to become your family? You know, with your dad away and your mom kinda doing her own thing, did you feel like you just kinda created a new family? Yeah, that's kind of exactly how it happened, you know, because then when you start doing... You know, you're committing multiple felonies a day with people. There's, there's a bond there, you know? Mm-hmm. Like you're taking big chances, you're making money or you're not, or, you know, whatever kinda antics or violence or things that come with that whole thing, you know, that they, they become your brothers. Yeah. So how wild is it getting? It's starting to get pretty wild. Um, it's starting to get pretty wild. The, uh, you know, the, the, the, the drug expansion, you know, obviously then turned, added ketamine and ecstasy and, you know, cocaine, and so it was pretty much whatever, whatever I could get my hands on. The scrambler cards for

those Dish Network dishes were a thing. You know what I mean? Really? Yeah. So it was like basically anything illegal, you know what I mean, that I could've gotten my hands on at that time I had outlets for. Mm-hmm. You know, and I would find a way to move them, you know? And so like there was a lot of, you know, there was... Anything was in play at that time. Was there ever a thought of, "One of these days I'm gonna, I'm gonna go legit. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a proper..." You know? Or was it just like, "This is my life now"? Yeah. It was, "This is my life now." There was never a thought of going legit. There was a thought of eventually going to prison, which I was totally fine with. You know, I like, I completely accepted my fate, you know, when I made those decisions. I never did anything that I wasn't prepared to do the time for. Mm-hmm. You

know, which when you think about it, some of the things I was preparing to do with, you know, carrying 20 years, 25 years, you know, things like that. So the fact that a guy my age would just accept that as his fate and be okay with it, you know what I mean? Again, it's just like, it's the saddest thing, you know, when I reflect back on that. It's just such a, a waste of a life, you know? Well, it's also something about that prefrontal cortex not really being developed yet, you know what I mean? Yeah. That's why it's so easy to send young men to war for any cause, because it's just about the action, it's about the adrenaline, you know, and we don't even have the ability to even really think beyond 35, you know, or going into some type of different life. So, like how dangerous is this getting around you? Are people around you getting hurt or...? Um, I mean, overall, in

the grand scheme of things, you know, you know, you end up throwing a few beatings here and there to people. But in terms of like, you know, anything too bad, the bigger problem was at the time we were in the height of the pill epidemic, and so I was losing friends to that. Mm-hmm. 'Cause that's really... I mean, I got to the point with those funerals of people that overdosed that I just decided I can't, I'm not going anymore. 'Cause they were always the most awkward and upsetting things to go to. 'Cause one, somebody you know that you cared about is laying in a box, and then the other side of it, the family's there looking at everybody like, "Who's to blame?" Mm. You know what I mean? And it's, it's the most uncomfortable situation, and especially when you were somebody that was getting high with that person at one time or sold them something at one time, you know, like you have to s-

walk in there and face that, you know? And when you're already ashamed, you know, subconsciously of what you're doing, I just gave up on going to those things. But that was really the, the, the hardest part of, of that era of time in doing it, was just the amount of deaths, you know, from drug overdoses. It was, it was horrible. Yeah. And did you find yourself starting to get into drugs? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. By that time, I mean, I had a pill, powder, and potion for any moment of the day, you know?

It was, it was... Yeah. What was, uh, what was your go-to? Um, well, I loved... Ketamine was always my go-to. Mm-hmm. Um, because to be able to just unplug was, to me, the sweetest space to find myself in. So that was always, you know, I was able to just turn it off. That's interesting, you know? Like, did it ever... Like, your experiences in ketamine, would it ever ma- complicate- The way you felt about the things that you were doing? Yeah. I mean- Or was, or did it just relax you- Well- for the most part, take the edge off? Yeah. Well, it definitely took the edge off. You know, like, I was a maintenance dose guy. Like, I was, I would, I would drive around with a jar in my pocket. I'd be driving all day on ketamine. Mm-hmm. You know, like, people that knew me, you know, they were like, "How the fuck are you driving a car right now?" You know, I just was

able to just process. It became something that was so normal to me. Um, my buddy Dave, once I picked him up and, you know, gave him the jar. We're all both bumped up, and I'm driving down to Merritt Parkway. He was living up in Connecticut. And he looks, like, rolls over and he goes, "How are you driving?" And I go... 'Cause in New York, you have the registration sticker in the bottom left-hand corner of the windshield. So I was like, "Davey." I said, "You just put the Reggie on the line and let the music take you home." So as long as I kept the registration on the white line, I knew the car was on the road. Yeah, right. So yeah. So that's the type of madness that I was living in, you know? Um- Oh, right. Yeah. 'Cause again, when you have, you know, inexpensive or free drugs 'cause you're selling everything, y- you're gonna, you know. And then you have a psychotic mind

like I had at that time. Mm-hmm. You know, it's hard to manage. It really is. You gotta manage, you know, looking out for yourself. You gotta manage taking care of yourself, like, domestically with, you know, your normal laundry and food, um, you know, when you got 100 years worth of prison time and drugs in the closet, you know? So Yeah. It was, it, it got, it got bad with the drugs as well. You know what I mean? Of course. Yeah. So, and, um, s- so would you say y- you definitely started gaining a dependence on some of these drugs? Yeah, 100%. Um, uh, kind of what became my go-to or my, my day-to-day more so than anything else was opioids, opiates, you know, 'cause- Pills or- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, pills. You know, those, when the Roxies were going around, the little blues and, you know, the Oxies before that, and then they put that thing in them so you couldn't scrape the coating off. But

we figured if... We found out if you got, like, a real fine grate, like cheese grater, then you could, you know- Oh, the time-release coating. Yeah, the time release. Yeah. So we're coming up with ways around that. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it was just, you know, it was, it was bad. And then of course, when that started drying up, the price of the pills was going through the roof. What did everybody do? They took to the street, and in New York you have phenomenal heroin. Yeah. You really do. There's great heroin in the streets of New York, and Jersey as well. So, you know, when you have everybody basically in a certain age demographic addicted to this stuff, you know, those, those outlets in the city, you know, and those areas that are known for heroin just became, you know, just a constant, nonstop 24/7 drive-through business for those guys. And you say you feel like you were pretty functional, or could

you feel it starting to take you down? I w- if, if you were to ask me at the time, I would've thought I was functional. Um, but was I really functional? Mm. You know what I mean? Functional in that lifestyle, it doesn't take much, you know what I'm saying? It just takes a lack of respect for the law and pretty much for yourself and- Yeah. You know what I mean? That's really all it takes. Now, when you can numb any nerves with all this other stuff, it's like all systems go. Yeah. Right. So- At what point did we, did we get to a point where we were like, "Man, we're either gonna have to slow down or something bad's gonna happen. Like something has to change"? No, so that point was never reached.

We're just gonna keep it in the red, man. That's it. Pedal to the metal. That's it, you know. Like we... You know, 'cause you get to the point where, like, it's, it just becomes your norm and, but you also get off on it to a certain degree. There's a certain element of power that comes with having a reputation of, you know what I mean, somebody that was doing the things I was doing and behaving- Mm-hmm the way I was behaving. You know, you weren't somebody necessarily to be fucked around with. You know, so there's that whole thing starts to come into play, too, and the ego loves that. Something sexy about being an outlaw. Absolutely. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. And so you play that to the T, and you know what I mean? Of course, you're out every weekend, tables, bottles, girls, this. And that whole lifestyle just unfolds. You know, and you're surrounded by people that are doing the same things. Mm-hmm. So it

doesn't really appear that bad. Like, to us, we'd go out all Saturday night, and we go back to maybe my buddy's house in Long Island, right? And then from there, we're doing GHB and crystal, you know what I'm saying, where there's orgies with girls, there's... You know what I'm saying? Just drugs for days, and we'll just be there till Wednesday. You know what I mean? Yeah. And like- Wow. Yeah. So it's like when you're doing that, like you're... Who's better than you when that's- Yeah you know what I'm saying? You're partying and then, and having orgies with girls and... You know what I mean? And living like a complete maniac, and you love every second of it while you do it. And you're just gonna ride it for as long as you can. Exactly. Until something else comes and stops it for you, I guess. That's exactly how that happened. So how did we get to that point? So I ran into a guy in

Washington Heights that had owed me money. I hadn't seen him in, like, whatever. So I end up grabbing him, throwing him in the truck, um, took him for a little ride, you know, the whole nine. Next thing I know, I'm up in Westchester. There's a helicopter chasing me. I end up leaving the truck, you know, cutting through the woods, calling people. I get picked up. I get away. Left the dude in the truck. Yeah, left him there. Yeah. Yeah, so he was there. Um, it was, it was a, it was... I was with two other guys. One of them got caught right there 'cause he was like... We were hiding in the... There was a little wooded area, and the, the helicopter's going back and forth with the spotlight over us. And he's like, "Oh, oh, we gotta get out of here. We gotta..." I said, "Listen, man. Shut the fuck up and calm down." I'm like, "I have a car coming to get us."

I was like, "Just relax." He takes off running through the woods, and then I just see a convergence of flashing lights in the direction that he headed. Um, so he was out. And then the one guy stayed with me, and we got away that night. And then he called me later, and he goes, "Oh, the cops called my house." They knew who we all were, you know. Um- What, what's going through your mind at this point? Is it like, "The game is over," or is there some, "I can still, I can still get out of this"? Yeah, there's always that. Like yeah, there's always that, like, criminal mindset where you're like, you know... Or at least I'm gonna push it to the end. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not, I'm not gi- I'm never giving myself up. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? So, uh, we get away that night, and then the one guy... Meanwhile, it's Friday before Memorial Day weekend. So,

like, when I grabbed this guy off the street, there was a million people on the streets in New York. Everybody's outside. It was in, like, a Dominican neighborhood, so we're all outside drinking, partying. You know what I mean? It was, it was, like, in front of m- uh, everyone, you know, that I did this. Um, but then- So this guy calls me, he's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna-- The cops called. I'm gonna turn myself in." I'm like, "Are you nuts?" I'm like, "You're not gonna get arraigned until Tuesday." I was like- I was like... He's like, "Well, the cops called." I said, "Who gives a fuck if the cops called?" You know what I mean? Uh, so he went and turned himself in and sat there waiting for arraignment, and I went on the lam for a while. I was like, "I, I'm going to prison." You know what I mean? So I hid out a few different places. You know, I was just enjoying myself,

just like waiting, and then I linked up with my lawyer and, uh, he drove me into the police station and, uh, you know, got processed and that was it. And I was in, and, uh, that's when they hit me with the quarter million dollars bail, and they charged me with kidnapping, assault, and robbery. So it's 15 to life on the kidnapping charge by itself. So what, what, what were you thinking when you heard that? I was thinking the witness ain't gonna come to court. Yeah. That was what I was... That's how am I gonna get around this one. Well, the witness ain't showing up. You know what I mean? Right. So that was where my mind was, um- So they, they're, they're... Even then, like they're, they're telling you how long and you're like, "I got this." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, "Well..." I was like, "Yeah, that's... You know, you can tell me whatever you wanna tell me, but..." You know what I

mean? This thing hasn't even opened up yet. You know, like the, when your victim doesn't wanna testify, and that's what the whole direction my head was going in- Right you're really not gonna have any case. But the prosecutor's office in that one, they did a good job of making sure they got their hooks in him early and like hit him out and everything. Um, so he probably was gonna, but they came back with like a seven-year offer. And, um, and I was like, "You just went from 15 to seven years." Then they took the kidnapping charge off the table. They wanted to put attempted robbery in the second degree as the charge. It was like seven, I think. Then they came back with five. My lawyer at the time was like, "Oh, you know, we're gonna take the five." I was like, "I'm not fucking taking five." I'm like, "They had 15 on the table. You know, obviously they don't feel that good about this

case if they already just knocked 10 years off of it." You know what I mean? Yeah. Cut it in half right away. Yeah. So that gave me... You know what I mean? Like most people are like, "All right, fine. I'll take it." I was like, "No." Like, you know what I mean? Like, "Then I'll go to trial, you know? We'll really see what happens." And they ended up coming back with two, and my lawyer was like, "Listen." He's like- He was like, "I don't wanna hear any more of your shit." He's like, "They came with two." He's like, "You're gonna meet me at the diner right now and sign the shit." And I was like, "All right. No problem." So I signed up for my two years. And then, um, I... That was it. You know what I mean? I was in- Where, where did you go in? So I was in Westchester County Jail, and, uh, that's when they hit me with that, you

know, that crazy bail, and I was like telling my family, "That's nuts." So I was in there for, I don't know, a couple of months, had a secondary bail hearing, got that reduced to like 125,000. I was like, "All right, so you bond that out, it's 10%." You know what I mean? It's not as bad as the 25. Uh, and then I was on the street just waiting to go, you know, dealing with the case. It w- it was... I don't remember how long it was in between the time I went, but it was the same thing. I walked into the courtroom, met my lawyer. You know what I'm saying? Went in front of the judge, boom. Cops grabbed my hands, pulled me on my back, and they walked me back down to the bullpens, and that's where it all began. And I was in- All right. Yeah. I was in Westchester County for a couple of months before I got shipped up to Mid-State

Correctional Facility about four hours north of the city. Man, that's a lot. So w- when you get to prison, uh, like just tell us about that first day. Oh, that first day in prison, man, it was kind of... It was definitely surreal. You know? It was definitely surreal. Um, well, they bring you, they bring you to downstate first. So downstate is like a, a prison that's maybe like an hour north of the city, and then from there is when you get sent out. So downstate COs are notorious for bashing people up because you're getting everybody coming in from these different places. A lot of guys maybe run into each other that shouldn't be near each other. You know what I mean? It's like a big melting pot. Um, so I was only there for a couple weeks before I got sent up, but that place, you know, that place is just a transit hub. So now you get to, to my spot, and the f-

one of the first things the COs say when they take us off the bus is that, "You are now in a sexual, sexual offender prison, and if you put your hands on one of our rapists, we're gonna add 10 years to your sentence on a hate crime." That's how much those guys are protected. That's how much those pieces of shit are protected, yeah. Wow. Yep. So that's the first thing I got hit with, and now I'm shocked because in my mind I'm thinking like they're fair game. That's you know, I mean the way that it, you know- Yeah. Might as well have fun while we're in prison. Yeah. You know what I mean? So then they tell you that. Now you're scared if one of them even does something to put your hands on him 'cause they're gonna try to flip it on you, you know what I mean, while you're in there. But, you know, they, they moved us off the bus, and I

started to learn about, you know, how this joint was laid out, and it turns out I ended up in probably one of the, the worst places to end up when it comes to a medium security place in New York because it was a repo joint. So basically the way the prison system works is they have programs. So whatever you did wrong to get put in prison, there's gonna be a program or multiple programs for it. So that's where the machine starts working. So when they have all the repos, the repo's gotta do a repo program. When they have drug, drug addicts, drug offenders, you gotta do the drug programs. You have to do all these programs. I had to do anger management. I had to do a drug program. So all these things that they have, you don't wanna end up in a prison that serves mental health facil- health, uh, serves mental health drugs and also caters to housing, you know, the sex offenders.

So it's definitely not, you know, where you wanna be, um, because you're gonna deal obviously with people with a lot of mental health issues if they're serving, you know, mental health meds. So I ended up there, and there was also a "Law Order" episode done about that place 'cause the cops killed a guy. They also had a box there. They had the SHU. So if you got sent to the box, you didn't have to leave the facility. You went right there. Solitary. Yeah, solitary. Yeah. Yep. So there was a, there was a "Law Order" episode about that place where the cops, you know, booted, beat some kid to death. There was boot marks all over him, and they strung him up and said he hung himself or something, so. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was a, it was a, it was kind of a wild joint. Um, but I got settled in, you know, rather quickly. There was a guy-- There was a motorcycle club at

the time that I was friendly with, and so like a f-friend at a club was also in there. So when I reached out to the, you know, my friends out in the street and let them know where I was going, "Oh, you know, Truck is there. So just when you get to the yard, he'll be waiting for you." So I knew somebody when I got there. Um, and then of course, as you start to politic and navigate through that environment, you learn, you know, you meet more people that know people you know, and so you get a little bit of, you know, credibility that way. Um- But it's its own world inside there, man. You know, most people only know what they see on movies and things like that. But, uh, is it like, do you, do you gotta find friends quickly when you get in there? Or kinda what was your experience with that? Well, for that, for me, I didn't. I mean, we

used to have a joke where we'd see like... 'Cause it's all racially segregated. Right. But we used to have a joke that we would see like these, like these little scared white kids hanging out with the Muslims, like he's about to take his Shahada. Next thing you know, you see this like little white kid from somewhere with a kufi on. You know what I mean? So you have people that, that do that. I, I chose not to do that. Mm-hmm. I ran independent when I was there. You know, I hung with the dudes that I knew a little bit, but I also became friends with, uh... Ended up becoming friends by accident with the head of-- one of the heads of the Bloods. Uh, which, which, I mean, it didn't really work out in my favor 'cause I didn't utilize that for anything. Mm-hmm. But me and him became cool because I had an open case when I was up there, so they pulled me

out when I was doing my time, drove me back down to, to appear before the judge for some, like, nonsense. Some guy said I threatened him, and it was like some stupid thing. So I had to deal with that case, and when I got back, I had to go back through reception, and there was a kid in the bed next to me. It was this kid, you know, Lex, who was-- seemed to be cool. And the kid was-- I could tell the kid was a gangster. Like the kid was about it. He wasn't one of these like loudmouths trying to make a name for himself. Like he moved like he, he really understood how things worked. So me and him just became cool right off the bat. Then when I got my property, I gave him like a loaf of bread and some peanut butter, you know, and cans of tuna just to hold him over. And he was, "No, you know, I don't want

anything." You know, like, "I don't have nothing." I said, "Bro, don't worry about it." You know what I mean? I was like, "I'm good. Like I have all of this. Like I'm getting plenty of stuff from the street." Turns out this is like one of the heads of the Bloods. So, um, you know, that's how I kinda accidentally, you know what I mean, kinda navigated my way through just by being true to myself and who I was. I didn't take any shit from anybody, but when somebody was, you know, a good dude and, you know, they moved the right way, then those were kind of the guys that I gravitated towards. Uh, did, did it cause any problems for you being independent at all or? No. Actually, right before I was about to get released, I was in a housing unit with one of these young kids trying to make a name for himself with the Bloods. He was like a li- You know, he

came in without an affiliation and then wanted to become a Blood in jail, which is-- happens all the time- Mm-hmm but it's also looked down upon like, you know, now you wanna get into like- Yeah you know? Yeah. Now you're kind of- Yeah. There's no other options now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I, I ended up having like a couple of problems with this kid, so, and I went out to the yard and, uh, Lex was sitting under the pavilion on a, on a bench, and he had security points all around or whatever, and I just go walking straight through them and some of them start coming towards me, and Lex is like, "Yo, yo, leave Diamond alone." You know? So I just walked up, sat on the bench next to him. I said, "Lex, listen, man." I said, "I'm gonna put your boy out." I was like, "I'm coming to you out of respect." I said, "I'm not asking you for anything." I said,

"I just want you to hear it from me first." You know what I mean? 'Cause then the stories are gonna start flying. You know what I mean? Like, you know, it ain't a race thing. You know what I'm saying? But your boy's got a mouth on him. I was like, "And I'm gonna put him out." And he's like, "Diamond, give me till chow tomorrow." And I was like, "No, Lex, like please, like I'm not, I'm not trying to get involved in any you owe me, I owe you. We've been," you know what I'm saying, "cool with that the whole..." He goes, "Bro," he's like, "your date is around the corner." He's like, "You're going home." So he went at this kid and whatever he did, you know what I'm saying? I, I barely even saw the guy for like the next three weeks until I was- Oh, wow walking towards the gate. Yeah. So they just handled it themselves. They handled it themselves, yeah. So

later on I found out Alexis kind of went at him and was just like, "Listen, bro." He's like, "If you make that dude lose his date," he's like, "You're not gonna be able to live anywhere in the state. Anywhere you go, you're gonna get hit and hit and hit." So that just shut that whole thing right down. Wow. Yeah. So what are you doing with your time when you're in prison? How, how long are you in for? So they gave me two flat. Wow. So I had to do 85% of that, um, because it was a violent crime. Mm-hmm. So if it's a non-violent offense in the state of New York, you do 65. So I had a few months in from the county time, and then I went up there. I think I only had to do about a y- like 16 months when I got up top, so it wasn't really that long. Mm-hmm. Um, I know sometimes when I think about that,

like a year and a half of my life, and I'm like, "Yeah, really, it wasn't that long," you know? Yeah. Well, I guess you get to talking to other people that's been, you know, in there 10, 20 years, it probably doesn't feel like that long. Yeah. Yeah. So, so what are you doing with your time- So- while you're in there? So they had... It was... They had a welding program there, and that's something I always wanted to do, always wanted to learn. So I signed up for the welding program. I get into it pr- really quickly, and I go down there, I learn how to weld, and this is something I'm really... Turns out I'm really, really good at. So the, the civilian instructor that I ran with, this guy, he was a cool dude, man. Thank God for that guy. He kept me down there as much as he could, 'cause he took a liking to me. He made me the, uh, facility, like

instructor, like the inmate instructor. So I stayed in the welding program the whole time I was there. So Do-- I mean, is it so routine that you kinda just, I mean, obviously, you know, I hear it takes about six months before the brain starts to accept that this is our life now. But once that acceptance happens, I mean, does it just feel like a normal day-to-day? You wake up, you have your chow, you go to your job or your school, you know, or the counseling lessons, like, uh, or, or is it just like you're just kinda hanging around all day? Yeah, it does kinda become normal because it's like its own little city in there, and it's, it's just like you said, you know what I mean? You wake up, you eat, you, you know what I mean? You go to your program, you go to your job, you do what you have to do, and you go to the yard at night, see your

friends. You know what I mean? So it really, it does become like that. Mm-hmm. And then you have your ups and downs emotionally, where sometimes, like, you're sleeping on this, like, crunchy, plasticky mattress, and you're laying there, and this blanket that's uncomfortable, and you're just like, "What the fuck am I doing?" Yeah. It hits you hard, you know? And then you just sh- you have to shake that off. Like it's... There's a saying for guys that have been inside. It's like you don't, you know, you do the time, you don't let the time do you. Right. So that's where you just get into your programs, you work out, you know what I mean? You just, you find a routine for yourself, and you just take it day by day. But it's not like the movies where you're just trying not to get stabbed all day. Like there's, there's a bit more structure, I guess. Yeah. It's not the way they make it seem, man. It's

definitely not. Like you're always, you're always sleeping with one eye open, for sure. Yeah. You know, like you're always taking precautions, you know what I mean? Like, because I was in the welding shop, I had access to metal. Mm-hmm. So I could make up a nice little shank up there, slip it out the window to my boy in lawns and grounds who's pushing a mower. It's something the COs don't think about? This episode of Beyond the Ceremony is brought to you by Tribal Detox. At Tribal Detox, we don't just teach people how to serve kambo. We teach them how to hold space professionally, ethically, and safely. There are a lot of places teaching medicine work now. What makes Tribal Detox different is that we've never tried to build a guru culture around this work. We believe this medicine deserves deep respect, guided by spirit, but grounded in safety, science, humility, and real-world experience. Our trainings are immersive. You're not just sitting in a classroom memorizing

protocols. You're stepping into a community of practitioners from all walks of life who genuinely care about integrity in this space, from contraindications and safety protocols to understanding the peptides found within kambo and learning how to properly support people physically, mentally, and emotionally through the experience. This is more than a school. It's an experience that stays with people long after the training ends. If you felt called toward this work or you're looking for a professional training rooted in both respect for tradition and modern safety standards, you can learn more at tribaldetox.com. Now let's get back to the episode.

They do. Or, yeah. But they also know how this, how it works. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, we're always gonna be trying to get over, and they're always- Yeah you know. So, you know, so I would- It's a game. It's a game, yeah. But I was in the best position to, to defend myself, having access to metal, you know what I mean? So drop shanks out the window, lawns and grounds kid picks it up, give it to the rec aide, he gets it past the, the metal detector, and then you get out to the yard where you hang out and you push them down into the dirt. And then you know the areas where you sit, and you'll, you, you studied what that ground looks like, and you know where those shanks are pushed into the yard. And you'll see the cops go out there with the metal detectors, you, you know what I'm saying? When they have us closed- Really? So they,

so they know you're doing it. They... Yeah. They know the game, you know what I mean? It's like they're gonna find them, we're gonna keep putting them out there, because then if something jumps off in that yard and there's 2,000 people caged into one big... You know what I'm saying? And things just are going crazy. Mm-hmm. I'd rather get caught with one than without one. Yeah. Right. So you learned how to weld? Yeah, I learned how to weld, got very good at it. Um, and then just rode out my time pretty much doing that, and finally got released and, uh, went, went home. Uh, I, I was actually married. I got married like the day before I was supposed to turn myself in to start my time. So I married this girl that I was dating for a while. In my mind, I'm getting conjugal visits, you know what I mean? Turns out I end up in a place that doesn't have them. So, you

know, and that's not the only reason. She was my girlfriend for years, you know what I mean? She was a good girl, and I-I... it still was a jumped, again, decision I shouldn't have made at the time 'cause we were divorced like within a year of me getting out. Um, but I, you know, paroled. I managed to save my good time, so I got out a little bit early, a couple months I had worth of good time. I didn't lose that in the process. Um, and then I started, you know, I was on-- Then I was at parole. I was on parole. I mean, that was it, and that's th- that's a whole 'nother feeling of, of, of unsafety. It's worse than being inside. Why, why is that? Because now you have freedom dabbled in front of your face, and you really don't have any. These people can come search your house whenever they want to, which they actually tried to do to me, and

I was in Atlantic City where I wasn't even allowed. I wasn't allowed out of the state, but I was in Atlantic City with my friends. Uh, so the parole supervisor, he's, "Oh, we came to search your house. Where were you?" Um, I was like, "I was home." I was like, "Why don't you call my phone?" 'Cause I didn't have any missed calls. He's like, "We were banging on the door and then I saw the bell's broken." So then I had the super who was like I was cool with, I had him write up a work order that the bell was broken, so then I brought it into the office and turned that in 'cause he was trying to jam me up for not being there for the, for the visit. But yeah, it's just because you're getting your balls busted, you're getting like, you know, people are watching you. There was one night I just saw him like lurking just outside my house. They're trying

to get you back in prison. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You know, and then I went in there with, with dirty urine once, and then he really turned it up on me. You know what I mean? So it was like... He's like, "Well, why'd you come in dirty?" I'm like, "Because I went out and partied. Like, why do you think it's dirty?" You know what I mean? "Well, now I gotta put my boot on your neck," he told me. I'm like, "You do what you gotta do, and I'm gonna do what I gotta do." You know? But living like that, it's just like the worst. It's almost like easier to be inside. The rules are the rules. It is what it is. That's your reality. You know what I mean? To be like given geographic restrictions, you have a curfew. Um, I remember when I got out, I had a-- I got a job within like a day. I just found some plumbing company. I went

in there, I told the guy, "Listen, I'll work for you for free for a week. If you're not happy with me, you don't pay me a dime, you'll never see me again." And that's how I got a shot. Wow. Yeah. So you go into prison with the mentality of Chris from the streets, and then you come out of prison with the mentality of Chris from the streets went in, now I've done time. Coming back, how are we, how are we doing mentally? Well, now we're Chris from the streets with a PhD. Yeah. You know? Right. And even more connections. You meet guys in there, you learn stuff. You, you know what I mean? Like, listen, when you get out, you go- Do you feel like you learned more about how to be a criminal in prison than before you went in? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 'Cause you have to be a criminal while you're in there. Well, you don't have to be. I chose to

be. Excuse me. You know, like, I, you know, like I said, I had access to metal. I did... You know what I mean? Things like that. You could, you could go in there and just walk a straight line. You know what I mean? It's, you know, I got high like twice when I was in there. Do guys do that? Do, do they just go in, do their time, keep to themselves and, or, or do they get picked on or bullied and do they... Are they easy targets? Yeah. There's definitely some guys that are easy targets. You know, of course. You know, like there's certain guys that have something about them that, you know, people just kinda know that they're not one to cross, and then there's guys that are just clearly... You know, there's predators and prey. Yeah. You know? And it's not, again, like we were talking, it's not everybody's getting stabbed every day, and it's not... Like I was walking home from the

yard one night and there was this k- this kid, Johnny Handsome, who was getting dope f- through another kid from the Bloods. So the other kid had the money, um, and then Johnny was the one going to the Bloods, getting the dope and getting the money from the other kid. They were splitting the dope. Well, the kid's family got hip to what he was doing and cut him off, so now they have this huge heroin debt to the Bloods. Yeah, I hear debt's bad in prison. Bad. Bad. So we're walking back from the yard one night, and he's about 20, 30 feet ahead of me And three guys walk past me real quick, and I'm like, "Oh, shit." You know what I mean? 'Cause when you're... There's movement on the yard. Anybody moving too fast is g- you know what I mean? Something, something's good right there. Everybody's just walking. Go down, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And those are kinda like the prison rules of, like,

what you learn how to move and how to look at what's going on. Um, so I seen these guys just breeze right past me. So one, one got on either side of him, and they grabbed his hands and held his hands straight down at his sides, and one reached up from behind him with the top of a s- a tuna fish can and ripped him from his mouth to his ear. Oh my God. Mm-hmm. Et ouais So seeing things like that, is it just another day of prison or does it, does it do something to you? Are you like... Or does it jar you at all or is it, is it just become life now? Yeah, it's both. You know- Yeah it does jar you, um, but it's also your life, so you kinda just like, "All right. Well, this is where I'm at." Um, but at the same time that's disturbing, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. You know, when they moved me

from reception to my first housing unit in that place, they were still mopping up the blood when I got there with my bags. Fuck me, man. And I'm like, "This is where I fucking land, really?" Like, so now I'm thinking like, who knows what went on in this house because is... You know what I mean? Is there some kind of war I'm walking into? Is it a race thing? Is it not? You know what I mean? Obviously shit's jumping off in here. Mm-hmm. If this guy's mopping blood up, I'm waiting for him to finish so I can make my bed. You know what I mean? So- Jesus yeah. Yeah, that was day one. So

all right. So now we're Chris from the streets to the PhD. Yep. Yeah. So I come home. Now I'm on parole. I'm trying to ride that out. Um, so I'm working. I was working at a, uh, one of those like Mavis tire places, you know what I mean? Like just doing alignments or whatever, hating my life, you know, and this guy's parole officer's showing up, um, just annoying me, and I ended up moving just to change POs, but that's another story. Uh, so yeah, no, I'm just, I'm just working, um, but I'm sneaking around. Like at the time my buddy had a, like a really nice little card spot, so we were doing like the poker games there and everything. So like I would try to like sneak out after curfew and go to, to go to the card games and hang out, you know what I mean, to get out a little bit. So meanwhile, I mean, if that place ever got raided, I'm

in there on parole. Yeah. You know what I mean? I'm associating with all felons. You're not allowed to talk to any felons. I'm like, "Well, I'm not gonna have any friends." Yeah. Yeah. You know, so I'm just pretty much trying to do me as much as I can, um, but also k- try to like appease this parole officer as much as I can as well. But then I found out there was another parole officer that her jurisdiction was where my boy had a house. So when I got split up from my, you know, my ex at the time, I moved into the apartment above his garage 'cause that was in her jurisdiction. This lady was the best. Like she had... She was notorious for it. Oh. So she came there, did the home visit. As long as you went in and pissed dirty, she never checked the curfew. So like this is the way it works too. Like we know who's who with the parole-

Mm-hmm and then, all right, I gotta move over here to get this one. You know what I mean? So I was- Still playing the game. Yeah, still playing the game. You know what I mean? And it's exhausting. You know what I mean? But it's, it's still everything is done in fight or flight. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? So like when I think back on it from like that running across state lines when I was a little kid when I, I... Just figuring that out out through doing this work, you know, then of course to my own, you know, beating that kid up and the house getting raided and all those things, it's been nothing but fight or flight for me my entire life. So you, you just never relaxed fully. Yeah. Never. I was never safe. Yeah. You know, that's another big thing I'm unpacking right now is like I was never safe because I was basically in the system from the time I

was 16 because I had that case going on. I didn't get convicted until I was like 18. Then they gave me pr- uh, probation for that, so I was on probation till I was- Like 22. So that thing went from like 16 to 22. So like that's all fight or flight time. 'Cause now I'm on probation, so I'm worried about these people getting me jammed up. Of course, I pissed for, for weed when I went into one of those, they hit me with a surprise one, so like you're more stressed out for that. You know what I mean? So over half a decade you're just in the red. Yeah. Yeah. It was almost like from the, yeah, from the time I was a kid, you know what I mean? I was wrapped up in the system, and then of course I picked it right back up, you know. And then I had other little arrests here and there, you know what I'm saying? That never

like materialized. You know, beat some guys up in Seaside, spent a night in jail, like deal with the case. Like they were never looking for time. Uh, I got charged with false, making a false written statement, a false verbal statement to the police. Like, you know, they, they tried questioning me about some, one of my boys. I tried to get him out of the trouble, and I ended up, they, I figured they broke the case or whatever, so I got charged in that. Um, the funniest part was when they wanted a statement when they arrested me. I said, "Why did you bring me in here?" "You think you're gonna get an honest statement now out of getting fucking charged?" You know. But, um, but yeah, just, you know, just bullshit like that, you know. So, you know, after having so much time dealing with the justice system, like what's your honest opinion of it? You know what I mean? Because, and I, and I think

we're aligned in a lot of ways the way we think about some of these things, and it's not, it's not even, uh, a diss to any individuals that are out there, you know, trying to do a good job or whatever. But- The justice system seems to be more about money than it does justice. What are your thoughts on that? That is the only thing that it's about. Yeah. There is nothing rehil- rehab, like rehab related to that. Their drug program in there is a joke. The counselors used to say, "You gotta fake it to make it," 'cause if you don't complete the program, you lose your good time. Mm-hmm. 'Cause it's just a money wheel, money wheel, money wheel. So they... The more programs they put you in while you're in there, the more money they continue to get from the government. That's why they want those- That, yep beds filled. Exactly. So d- do you, would you say there's any, um, attempt at rehabilitation

or is it just, is it more of a facade? It's a complete lie. Yeah. It's, there is, there is no rehabilitation associated with it, and there's, it's not designed that way. The recidivism rates prove it. You know what I mean? The recidivism rates, it's, you know, we have the most, I think we're either the most or second most in the world of incarcerated people- Mm-hmm by country. Um, and we have the resources and we have the knowledge if we really wanted to actually help people, but we don't. Yeah. 'Cause I feel like there are guys, I mean, obviously everybody that's in there, you know, is in there for a reason. But, you know, a lot of, a lot of guys that come from the streets are men and women that come from the streets. They come from a household full of trauma and full of abuse and neglect, you know, and that's just kind of the livelihood that they inevitably ended up in, you know,

just because of the unlucky place of where they were born or who they were born to. And I'm sure there's guys that, that go into prison really looking for, for help, you know what I mean? Or, or just something to get them to, to change their trajectory. Yeah. I mean, I was in there with a guy that was in there for drunk driving. Like, didn't kill anybody. I was in my, my... One of my, um, bunkies killed somebody in a drunk driving accident. But this, there was this other guy, I'll never forget him, and he was like a mark too, like a soft guy, had no business in prison. You know, I mean, people were definitely fucking with him. Um, but he, he just had too many drunk driving charges. And like, this is a guy who's, like, clearly an alcoholic, you know what I mean? Obviously, he's putting people's lives at risk, and you have to do something about it. But putting him in

there into a drug program where the counselors are telling you you have to fake it to make it, that guy's not getting any help. Yeah. You know what I mean? He's, he's g- and he's going back out into the street now being abused and bullied for, you know, whatever. He was in there for, like, a couple years. He's in a worse mental state coming out of prison than when he went in. Yeah. Now he's bitter. N- you know what I mean? He's angry because you, you, you, you just take on a certain amount of anger living in that environment. You have to. And likely to probably just fall right back into the, you know, or probably end up right back in prison. Yeah. Now he's a felon, so where's he gonna go to work? And you know what I mean? Like, he's gonna be down and, and more depressed than ever when he gets out of there. That's the thing, too. You know, it's, it's

so hard for a felon to get a work or to get... For a felon to, to find work, you know, at a reputable job. But then, you know, the man's banging on your door going, "You got a job yet? You got a job yet?" Yeah. Yeah, that brings me back to what I was, uh, talking about with that parole officer. When I had that job within a day of getting out, and it was off the books. He's like, "Oh, you got... You, you can't have that job." I was like, "So do you want me to go back to selling drugs? Because, I mean, I'd prefer that. Oh. If we can agree on that- Fucking troll then we control... We're in good shape. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, he wants me to quit the job. I'm like, "How many guys do you have walk out of prison and walk right into a job?" Mm-hmm. How many guys do you have doing that? And you break in

my... But then this is what you're up against. Yeah. No, he wanted me to go back to... So he couldn't tell me, you know? You can tell me to my face, but that's exactly what he wanted me to do. Yeah. Uh, and I'm sure prisons are just f- full of people that grew up in poor neighborhoods, just poverty, that, that didn't have any other path. It, it, it is really a sick business, and I'm not saying that, you know, there doesn't need to be correctional centers. You know, that's a given. But, uh, the way it's done here, it's pretty absurd. It really is. It's, it's horrific. And when you look at, you know, the mental capacity in a lot of the guys that were in there, um, y- you know, especially like, you know, the minority groups, you know, and a lot of, like, these Black kids from these impoverished neighborhoods like you mentioned, you know what I'm saying? Like, these kids also, they had

no shot. They were never even given an education. Some of these kids who were in there could barely read, and they were in New York City in the public school system. You know what I mean? But they're, they're now in prison coming from those hard environments, but even the basics, they were never given. Yeah. Like, those kids, like, you know, they had no shot. They never had a shot. No. You know, you have no education. You come from nothing. Your color of your skin works against you in the way that the, the world works out there, especially with employment, things like that. It's the reality of it. You know what I mean? And, and it's almost like those places are designed from people for, from those neighborhoods. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, they take you- It, it really does- Yeah seem by design. Yeah. "We'll take you right out of here. We'll put you over there, and then once you're over there, we're

gonna put you over here." And it's, you know- Nobody's gonna miss you anyways and there's a dollar amount attached to every one of their names. Every one of them is worth more money to the government and to the people behind all this going through that system than they are if they go out and actually make successes out of themselves. You know, I... Yeah. It's, it's interesting when you think about it because if they're out of prison, the government's just paying welfare. If they're in prison, the government's making money off of them. Yeah. Yeah. We can go through programs, and we're gonna get paid every time. You're in lawns and grounds, you go out and rake. Oh, we're... That's what... You know, now you're skilled in lawn maintenance. We're gonna get paid for that. You know? While we pay you four cents a day. Jesus.

So, okay. So, so, you know, you've been in the red for so long, man. You're, you're stressed out after you get out of prison just trying to make things work. Are you starting to see the cracks in your physical health, mental health? Like, what's going on with you? No. Um, you know, it was more-- I've always been hot-headed, short-fused, you know what I mean? I think that was part of my programming as well. Um, it's also like a protective measure, you know what I mean? It, it always was. But for the most part, it's... You know, my physical health is good. I always worked out, you know what I mean? I guess it's like a big thing, you know, with the- especially being in the joint, like criminals are always like looking to stay fit, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So the gym was always something that was a part of my life. Um, so I always had pretty good physical health. Uh, I

had herniated two discs when I was like 20 in the gym, and that also kinda made it a good excuse for me to always reach for the, the pills too. Mm-hmm. Uh, but, you know, I was-- At that point I was good. I ended up, um, lucking out, getting myself into the Ironworkers Union, uh, towards the tail end of that parole. I think I had two years on the back for that case. So I was doing that for a little bit, uh, a little while. But then again, it just starts to wear on you when you've lived this other life, and I was still going out partying, and I was still like selling drugs a little bit. Uh, and then it just got to the point, I think it was like probably about four degrees in Manhattan. It's 7:15 in the morning, and I'm in one of those hoists, those like elevators you see on the outside of the buildings. Mm-hmm. And it was cold

on the ground. It's getting colder as we go up, and it's snowing, and I'm about to go walk six-inch beams above New York without being tied off to anything. You know what I mean? And I'm going, "You know what? Fuck this." What, what... You know what I mean? Like, what am I doing? You know what I mean? Like, this is what the rest of my life is gonna look like? Mm-hmm. Me getting in this hoist every morning, freezing my balls off, risking my life for 180 grand to 150 grand a year. Mm-hmm. Like it's... No. So that didn't last, you know what I mean? And I went right back to doing what I knew best. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, just selling drugs and whatever other, you know, moves I could make to, you know, to make money, and living like a cowboy, doing what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it, and nobody was getting in my way. All right. And I

went right back to it. And were you able to stay out of prison, or did you go back? Oh, I went back. Yeah. Of course I went back, Jason. Yeah. So, um, yeah, at the time I was ironworking, um, and then I was just getting back into selling drugs, of course. And so another ironworker buddy of mine, I had moved into an apartment with him- And he was like, "Oh, has always wanted to do this," right? I'm like, "Well, I'm glad you have goals because I have the same ones." "So let's get it going," you know? So I end up getting like a Kia Mali and, you know, I was like, "Listen, you know, we'll sell it for this much," and da, da, da, and, you know, we worked out all the details with him, and we're selling it. And he's reaching out to people to sell it to him. And I'm like, "Well, that's not really the way that this works." You know what

I mean? Like, you kinda allow this to happen organically. Mm-hmm. You start looking too hard and you may find something you don't like, so there- Or find someone looking for you. Exactly. So he brings this kid Ty around, who's from like, uh, he's from Harlem, I think, this kid. And he, unbeknownst to me at the time, Ty had been caught up in some big crack and heroin bust the DEA nailed. Um, so Ty was out cooperating And I didn't know this guy He was an informant. He was an informant. Mm-hmm. And my roommate at the time was buying drugs from him on a regular basis, buying blues from him. And then of course, so this guy's out as an informant for the DEA. He's selling drugs. Sold drugs to us, we sold drugs to him. One day I get home, um, I was working. I come home, it was a cold day. You know, my boys dropped me off outside the house, and when I

open the car doors, I'm stepping out, there was DEA agents everywhere. Wow. Everywhere. Cars, er, screeched in front of us. They're like popping out from behind bushes, you know, the guns, the whole nine. So you're federal now. Oh, yeah, yeah. Now it's the big leagues. Um, so they, they grab me and they're like, "You know, we're, we're, you know, this is... You know who we are?" And I'm like, "Does it really make a difference at this point?" You know? Yeah. I know I'm fucked. So they bring me into the apartment. They hadn't even raided it. They got me on the street and walked me in to my own apartment, and they start like ripping the place apart. And I had like, I don't know, like 12 or 15 pounds of weed in there, uh, a bunch of molly, you know, 'cause of course that was a thing. But I didn't have the weight there at the house at the time. So they had caught me

on a wiretap talking about automatic weapons with high capacity magazines, so they were looking for those too. They're like, "Where are the guns? Where are the guns?" I'm like, "There's no guns here." So there was a gun there. It was a shotgun in the corner, but it wasn't what they were looking for. So they don't get their guns. Um, they get like some whatever little bullshit amount of molly. The whole case was over, ended up being between what was sold to the informant and what they recovered in the raid was about 187 grams. So that put me in a B1C in the federal system, which means zero to five kilos. So at the same time, it's a pretty shitty thing. You can get caught with a gram by a fed and you're gonna do the same time as a guy with five keys. So that's the range, the way it works. Yeah, B1C is zero to five keys. B1B is five to 10, and then

there's- Zero to five. Mm-hmm. Zero. That, that's, that's a bit of a stretch. Yeah. That's what I'm saying, right? Um, so that was the case. I mean, they had- And you had j- just under? I don't remember what they caught me with at the house. I don't remember what the difference in the weight was- Yeah between what they recovered there, but I remember like the num- It didn't matter as long as it's within that zero to five, I guess. Exactly. Jesus. Exactly. So it kept me on the lower end of that, and then they charged me with a 924, which is the, the, a gun charge. So in the federal system, it charges- For the shotgun in the corner. Yeah. If you sell drugs and there's a gun in the room in a visible place, you used it in the commission of a crime. Which I think is bullshit because- Mm if it's sitting in a corner, you know what I mean? It was for-

And it was owned by my friend. It was- For his defense or whatever. Yeah. It was legally owned by my buddy. He went to the Sports Authority at the time, bought it, you know, and he was in the house. They knew whose gun it was. Mm-hmm. Um, so now I'm in there for that. They bring him in, my, my, uh, my roommate, my co-defendant, and then so we're both in holding And he's got this deer in headlights look in his face and I'm like, "I'm fucked. This kid is going to sing." So I know what's coming, you know what I mean? He's not built for it. So I'm telling him like, "Yo, just sh- go in, don't tell them a word. Just shut the fuck up," blah, blah. So of course they pull him out of the bullpen next to me quick, like, "Stop talking." He's gone for like an hour and a half. He comes back, again, deer in headlights look, staggering. I'm like,

"Oh my God." So they pull me out. They s- bring me to this room, put the camera on. I'm like, I said, "I'm not, I'm not talking." Like, "You, you don't wanna help yourself?" I'm like, "I don't wanna help myself." And I'm like, "Just put me back in the cell." I'm like, "I'm not... I have nothing to say to you." "All right. Well, you'll change your mind." I go, "Okay, whatever." So turns the camera, puts me back. I'm back in three minutes. This kid was gone for like an hour and a half. So even there right outta the gate, you know what I mean? Yeah. So they bring us to MDC Brooklyn. Um, we get arraigned within a couple of days. My co-defendant at the time had... Was, he was on probation for an assault charge. In the federal system, if you get a federal indictment and you're on the street on supervision, parole, or probation, you're not eligible for bail This dude comes skipping

out of the courtroom. My father saw him when he was leaving, you know what I mean? So again, we already know what was going on. I go down, I talk to my lawyer. I'm like, "Listen, there's this gun. The gun's got a mandatory minimum of five years." I was like, "So get me seven." I was like, "And let's just everybody go home and fucking walk away from this thing." She's like, "Are you out of your mind?" She's like, "I didn't even get discovery yet. I don't even know what this case is about." So I was like, "All right." I was like, "Well, I'm gonna tell you what it's about. You know what I mean? It's about you just, like, getting this moved along so I don't have to sit here. You know what I mean? Just get me to where I'm going so I can do my time and get this over with." So I'm ready to just sign up for seven years thinking the

gun is, you know, whatever. So she ends up, you know, talking to the, to DA. They, they held me for ransom, so they did not offer me bail because I wouldn't cooperate. So I'm sitting in h- what's considered harsh confinement. So you get like two, two and a half days for every one day, I think, or something. There's some calculation that when you're in the place that I'm in, 'cause there's zero movement, it's like a supermax. You don't ever leave the tier. So you're locked in this two tier, the, like the ones you see on TV. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? You're locked in one of those 24 hours a day, seven days a week. There's nowhere to go. You're around the same people every day. It's, you know, it's, it's not the way to do time. So they're holding me in this place and th- you know, my lawyer every, like, month or two, she'd come back like, "Oh, you know, I have

to ask." I'm like, "Would you stop, stop bringing it up?" You know what I'm saying? "It's not, it's never gonna happen." And she's like, "All right, well, you know what?" She's like, "Honestly, Chris," she's like, "Thank you, 'cause you just made my job a whole lot easier." She goes, "'Cause people that wanna do that, then it, I have to sit in on it and, you know, make sure they're doing everything legally." I'm like, "Well, we don't have that issue." So I end up with this judge named Kimber Wood, who is the most, like, the best judge you could ever get in any kind of case. She did "Playboy," like, back in the '70s. She's like super cool, and I'm in there for 187 grams of molly. You know what I mean? Ultimately. So we end up, a couple days before my sentencing, um, I have to go before the judge. We d- they took the gun off the table 'cause I told my lawyer, "Then

fine, if there's a five-year mandatory minimum on the table for that gun, I'm going to trial on it." Because in federal system, if you beat a case, which using certain, like, case laws and things like that, now becomes precedent. You can change laws in the feds by fighting things a certain way. So I was like, "I'll do it. I don't care." You know what I mean? Like, what, worst case scenario, I'm looking at 10 anyway, probably five on the drugs, five on the gun. It is what it is. I'll just play ball for seven. So she ends up get- she ends up getting the gun off the table. She's like, "Listen, they want you to just plead guilty to the drugs and go in front of the judge. The judge will sentence you, but they'll take the gun off the table if you just plead guilty to the drugs." I was like, "All right. Done." You know what I mean? "We'll take that." So I'm

looking... Now, at the time I have now in the feds, I'm in the law books heavy every day. Every day. Federal codes and guidelines, you know, the whole thing. I have them all in my cell, and I'm just, like, hammering through these just trying to see, you know, what I can find out. So those automatic weapons that the DEA was looking for that was never, were never recovered, the pro- the, the United States attorney put that in my sentencing memorandum talking about those guns. So they were never part of the case. You suspected me of having something that you never had. You have no evidence of this. So I call my lawyer freaking out. I'm like, "Yo, you need to get in here." She's like, "Well, we got court tomorrow," or whatever, and I'm like, "Well, I'm not going." She's like, "What do you mean you're not going? You're in jail. They're gonna come get you and they're gonna bring you to fucking court." I'm

like, "No, because when they crack my cell, I'm gonna knock one of these COs out and I'm gonna be in the hospital." I was like, "I promise you." I was like, "We're-- I'm not going anywhere until we talk about this." So I go-- She comes and sees me, and she's like, uh, "What are you all like in, up in arms about?" I'm like, "Look at my sentencing memorandum and look at this." And she's like, "Well, Chris, that's the way they do it." And I'm like, "Well, that may be the way they do it with everybody else, but that ain't gonna be the way they do it with me." And she's like, "All right." She's like... I said, "I'm not going to sentencing." She's like, "Just let me handle it." She's like, "I will handle it." I said, "I trust you." And I did. At this point, I trust her. And she was like real good-looking. I ended up dating her after I got out, like

real movie shit, you know what I mean? She was just this like hot Puerto Rican chick with like fake boobs. I'm in prison, you know what I mean? Yeah. So she comes to see me, I'm like, my mouth is watering. You know what I mean? Like, so, so her and I got real close and got real cool. So she went to, up to, the morning of my sentencing, went up to the United States attorney, said something to him. So when we said our piece in the courtroom, when the judge went back to him and said, you know, "Does the, you know, United States attorney, what do you have on this case?" He stood up, said, "We have nothing, Your Honor," and sat back down. Wow. So whatever I did and whatever she did with that information, like it helped me. So I had everything working in my favor, and I spent tons of my time manifesting and, and, um, meditating when I was in the

feds. Actually, one of my cellmates in my state time was a Buddhist monk, ha- computer hacker, so he really taught me a lot about meditation. I used that time wisely. So you, you found meditation in prison? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Interesting. A little before that, but then when I had the-- When I was with-- I used to call him Felonious Monk. When I was in the cell with him, you know what I'm saying? We could really like dive into it and he could teach me more. Um, so I like, I was using that and using those manifestation techniques to walk out of that courtroom when the time came, and I had everything coming together. You know what I mean? And so part of that manifestation and that energy was really having its effect, and thank God I stayed in those books, man, because the judge-- That morning, I read a whole letter that I wrote about, you know, what a fuck up I was and what a

failure I was and all that stuff, and my lawyer, she did a phenomenal job in front of the judge, and judge came time to it. She's like, "I'm gonna release you, you know, to your family." She goes, "I'm gonna give you two years post, uh, release on the back." And that was it. I was back out in the world after a year in MDC Brooklyn. Wow. Wow. So what's the mindset when we get out this time? This time I'm not going back. This time I'm not going back. I decided. Is it we're not going back as we're getting-- we're being more careful about what we do, or we're, we're making different life choices? Different life choices. All right. Different life choices. I knew that that was my time. I couldn't do it anymore. I'm like, "This is so horrible." Like the-- when I did my state time, I was living good. You know what I mean? I had packages getting sent in in other people's

names. You know what I mean? Like I, I was, I was moving and shaking in there. I was m- I was comfortable. The fed time hurt- Yeah because you can't get anything from the street. You're eating off the commissary. You're eating off the food that they bring in there. Like even books, you have to order books straight from like Barnes Noble. Like you c- it's so, it's bad. You know, you could smoke cigarettes and get tobacco products in the state. None of that in the feds. You know what I mean? Like I suffered when I was in there. Wow. Yeah. It was, it was hard. That year was, was the hardest year of doing that time, and I was like, "I don't have it in me anymore." And I, and I knew at that time that I can't do time anymore and I can't do crime anymore So getting to know the, the monk, the, the hacker, did, do you feel like this had any

type of influence on you for, for when you got out? Like it's, it's an introduction to something that you're not really familiar with, I'm assuming. Yeah. Well, it started in my early 20s. My buddy Jim was like a six or seven time black belt, traveled all over the world, this and that. So he was all into chi, chi power, energy and things like that. Um, and that's around the time I started looking into paganism, moving energy, spell work and things like that. So it's been something I started doing like around my mid-20s, uh, started studying. And then, you know, we have your where you're really hot about it and then sometimes you go cold. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So you're in and out. I was never like tr- truly religious with the practice. Um, but then, you know, again, I get the monk in the cell, you know, that whole thing and, and so he gave me another, you know, refresher kinda on

like bringing-- pulling me back towards the things. Mm. And these things always resonated with me. I always felt these other energies. I always had a very good intuition. Um, you know, I, I always had this connection to spirit and this connection and to, to things that were greater than myself in terms of those energies. So there was always a huge inner conflict for me. As much as it sounds so natural coming out of my mouth about the things that I did and the way that I acted and how normal it all was, there was always this tear of where I knew that there was better for me and I knew that there was, there was something more fulfilling, um, and that it did-- it was conflicting in my soul to behave like this because I am very empathetic as much as I was able to be-- to turn that off and be so cold to people at different times and, you know, and hurt as

many people as I have. Um, but it was always something that tore at me. It never sat right, you know? It was never-- I was never just like full scumbag where I was totally great with doing all this stuff and, you know, there was no shame in my game and I was, you know, proud of it. Uh, there was always something off, you know? Bothered you a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. And so like I was-- I would always-- it was more of me like living in that lifestyle, but like I was forcing myself to do it, at the same time I enjoyed it. Mm-hmm. It's hard to kinda explain. No, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. But so the monk was a good refresher and so I, you know, I learned from him, um, and then stayed with it and then, you know, again-- And, and my lawyer too, she was big into meditation, so we always talked to each other, "Are you meditating? Are you

meditating? You gotta manifest. You gotta manifest." So like these people came into my life, you know, through these trials and tribulations, um, with good information and like trying to just tug at me and tug at me and remind me and remind me like that there's another way to live. And so, you know, I, I took these things from those people and I, you know, implemented them especially in the feds and, and, and I know that I had a big part to do with that outcome and so did my lawyer. I mean, not-- uh, professionally aside, just, you know, she was also meditating and manifesting for me as well. Wow. You know? So- It was very, very real, man, what happened in that courtroom that day. Like, my sister collapsed, you know what I mean? Like, 'cause every- everyone's expecting, all right, we're gonna get four or five, you know, on this time, and, and she just let me walk out of there, man. Thank you,

Judge Wood. Wow. Yeah. And I didn't wanna throw it back in her face either, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. No, I get you. So We're still in New York. We get out of prison, we're still in New York. Yeah, get out of prison, still in New York. I tell the probation department that I'm living at my sister's house, which I did for a short time. Short time after that, I was back in-- living in the city. I was living in Brooklyn, um, and I wasn't all- even allowed in Brooklyn. And so I was-- But I had a good PO. I went through, like, the drug program and stuff that I was required to do when I first got out, and he wasn't bothering me anymore. He was like... I, I just had to call in, like, once a month, like, "Hey, everything's cool." So then they switched my POs at some point, and I'm living in Brooklyn. She calls me up and she's

like, uh, "We-- Mr. Diamond, we need to do a home visit. You never had a home visit done," and da, da, da, da. And I'm like: Well, what are you getting on my case for? That's your job. I never told you you couldn't come to the house. Go to the fucking house. Mm-hmm. Like, he called me with an attitude. So, you know what I mean? So she's like, "Well, we're going. We're gonna do the home visit." So I'm like, "All right, yeah, fine. Go do it. Let me know when you wanna go." And I hang the phone up and I'm like, "Fuck, I don't even have a pair of socks at my sister's house." There is not even a trace of me being there, right? I have my whole apartment in Brooklyn. So I panic. I'm like, "I'm fucked. I'm going back." You know what I mean? So I go home and I put a spell on this probation officer, and, um, I honey potted

her. So I did the whole spell, uh, put it in the freezer, closed the door. Now, you can't open your freezer when you do a spell like that. So the freezer, I was like, "All right, so much for anything in there." You know what I mean? About, I don't know, maybe two weeks later, she calls me up, sweet as pie. "Oh, Mr. Diamond." "Yeah, Officer Biggs, how you doing?" "I'm doing great. Listen, I just wanna call you with some good news. You know, we're gonna, um, terminate your supervision. You know, you've been doing really good. Just keep it up," and blah, blah, blah. "Oh, thank you so much." You know, and that was it, man. I was done. Wow. Uh-huh. So you're starting, you're starting to see some mystical sides of life. Yeah, man. Yes. Definitely starting to see some mystical sides of life. Um, and as much as I had, you know, made a decision to change a lot of things, there were still

str- some struggles, man. There were still some struggles with drugs. You know, the opioids were a problem. You know, they came back into the picture as being a problem at that time. Um, and I made a decision in my early thir- mid, mid-30s, it was before either my 35th or 36th birthday, uh, that I was gonna finally get off all this stuff. So I went to see a doctor, put-- got put on Suboxone and got put on Klonopin, which now looking back on it, you know what I'm saying? He was my new drug dealer. Still on drugs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So my plan was to do that for a while to break the-- to, to basically to get some baseline. So, like, I wasn't getting high or I wasn't doing extra pills or whatever. Like, my pain was managed with the Suboxone. My addiction was managed with Suboxone. You know, so I was riding with that. Um, and then it was Christmas Eve, and

I had decided that by my birthday I was gonna detox and be off all these things, and my birthday's in January. It was Christmas Eve. I was supposed to go get the script refilled. I call the doctor's office, and he's like, "Chris, you gotta get out of here and get, get the script filled." You know what I mean? I'm like, "No, I'm not coming." And I was like, "It's Christmas Eve, I can't." I'm like, "Can't I just come next week?" He's like, "No, you gotta come today." So I was like, "All right, well, I guess it's showtime. This is, this is the time." So this was your cue. This was my cue. Like, yeah. Yep. So I was already starting to feel like shit 'cause the scripts was out, scripts were out. I went to my father's house Christmas Eve, um, really not feeling good. And I went home from there and I just basically laid in my apartment in Brooklyn for three weeks withdrawing

on the floor from, um, benzos and, uh, and the Suboxone. Oh my God. And it was brutal. It was brutal. For, for those that don't know, those are probably two of the worst, especially at the same time. Yep. Wow. Yeah, it was bad. I had heart palpitations, um, as I was telling you the other day, man, I had-- At one point I had 911 dialed into my cell phone, man. I was like, "All right, I'm gonna give this another five seconds. If this stays for five more seconds, I'm gonna hit it, and then, you know, I'm gonna s- I'm gonna call 911." And then the five would come and go, and I'm like, "I got another five in me." You know what I mean? So that five- Five seconds at a time. That's it, man. Yeah. My life was reduced to five-second intervals. You know, my dad came to check on me. I told him what I was doing. Um, he's always been just, you

know, my best friend, uh, my biggest supporter. And, uh, you know, we've had our, our, our ups and downs as a family man, but my family sticks together. Yeah. That's one thing I can tell you. Um, you know, we've been through thick and thin together, and my dad was there for me through that. And he walked in the apartment, he just looks at me, he goes, "Holy shit." And I'm like, "Dad." He goes, "Is there anything I could do?" I said, "No, man." He brought some food and some stuff over I think I asked him to bring and, uh, and that was it, man. He left me and he's like, you know, he's worried, he's scared. And I'm like, "Dad," I said, "Listen, d-d-- Everything I've been through, this ain't taking me out." Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? This is just another, another round in the, in the bout that I'm fighting. This is growth. Yep. Yep. And so it's almost like now I

kinda look at that as a lot of my medicine experiences and working with these medicines. It's like, yeah, I had to... Sometimes you have to be willing to go in and take the punishment in order to have that growth, and that's what I was willing to do, you know, at that time on the floor in Brooklyn. And, uh, I got through it and, and that was it, man. And that was, that was, that was it, you know? And I'd still party and go out, you know, and do ecstasy and K, whatever, you know? But like, in terms of like having that, um, you know, heroin addict basically, you know, element to my life, man, that was how I, that's how I got rid of it. Mm. How long do you feel like your brain was kinda calibrated into normalcy again? Oof. Um, it takes a long time, and at-- The best way that I was able to really see that was when I was in

prison because there were so-- As much as there are so many distractions, there are so few distractions, you know what I mean? So I was really able to see where I was, um, and take a good inventory of myself because of the monotony of that environment. Uh, and it takes, it takes a minimum... It took me like probably close to like eight months when I was in the state before I was like, "Wow," like, "Now I'm at the top of my game." But I was getting better and better- Mm-hmm and I was always like, after a couple of months, I was like, "Oh man, I'm back." And then when I look back on that, it kept getting better and better and better till it finally plateaued when I was like really- Yeah. And that's how I was able to navigate that, you know, because I was clear-headed. Mm-hmm. You know? Had I been on drugs, forget it. I would've been like beating people up, causing

wars. It would've been a disaster. No, man. You know what I mean? I was able to move the chess pieces. I didn't throw a punch when I was in the state. I didn't have to throw a punch. I move, I moved the chess pieces around the board, you know what I'm saying? Craftfully, artfully, respectfully, you know what I mean? I didn't walk in there like I was some, you know, tough guy, you know what I'm saying? But I also didn't take any shit from anybody. Yeah. And I was able, you know, in that mode to just make the right connections with the right people just by moving the way that I moved, you know? It's- As a man with respect and knew how to give it, but was, was not gonna tolerate it being, you know, violated either, so. So we're out of prison, we're walking away from the gangster life, we're getting sober. Where do we go from there? Yeah. So now, um, now

that I got myself sober, I'm still struggling with the addiction side because again, you're in that window of, yeah, and I'm not actively getting high, but there's still almost a year of time where I'm volatile and at any time I can go right back to this because there's the depression and there's the hopelessness, and there's the, all the things that come with newfound sobriety. Um- Uh, that's a misconception that a lot of people don't realize is that, you know, just because of movies and, and things like that, or just not really understanding that a lot of people think, "Oh, well, once you... You just have to have the courage to detox, and then once you detox, then you get through the withdrawals, then you're good." You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So, and that's what they think. They, they don't understand why drug addiction is so hard because to the, to the normal mind, they think, "Well, you just, you just have to suffer for

a week. You just have to suffer for a week, right? I don't see what the big deal is." But it's the, it's the lack of mental fortitude following that week for months on end as your brain's recalibrating, like you're saying, the depression, the hopelessness, or just feeling flat. Yeah. Like just numb with nothing. Yep. Yeah. And you know- And, uh, and then you know, like, you know how to make it stop right now. Yep. Yeah. That's the hard part. Yeah. It's, it's definitely, um- That's where the trap is, you know, because you don't see that coming. But there is still something in your mind every single day that's pushing you to go back to it, pushing you to go back to it. Hmm. 'Cause you're-- And at this point too, you're kind of hoping. You're like, "Am I gonna be like this? Is this my life now? Is this how I'm going to feel forever?" Yeah. Yeah. Yep. 'Cause no one explains that, like you

said. Mm-hmm. No one explains this period of time, and that's why no one ever really finds success in sobriety- Mm-hmm or very few people do rather. Um, but yeah, no, I would-- 'Cause so I was... But I did use a lot of ketamine in that time, um, to cope with that. And, um, you know, of course, again, it was one of my favorites. So d- was it partially possibly replacing one with another to a certain extent? Absolutely. 'Cause I was still scratching an itch. Um, but I was also able to pr- my biggest thing was, was the opioid addiction. You know what I mean? Like that I was like, once, once I can get a better handle on that, then I can work on everything else. And that's pretty much how I went about it. Mm-hmm. Um, which probably like clinically would, they would tell you I have like a one in billion chance of success with that, you know. But when you had the,

the fire that I had in my chest that started to burn for something more, and where that, the empath in me started to really speak and be like, "Listen," like there's no... You know, even to connect the right way with spirit and connect the right way with even just your own mind, like you can't be polluted and you can't be flooded with all these different substances and expect- Mm-hmm to have any relationship with something greater than yourself. You just can't, you know. Like you could think you are, but you're under that cloud of drugs, you know? Every- Mm-hmm. There's always-- I've had a million great ideas when I was high as a kite. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's, um, it just comes with the territory. But there was that-- I always had that voice. I always had my spirit guides. I always had them there. Mm-hmm. And I always knew they were there. And, um, and they were talking to

me and they were guiding me and they were like, "All right, you know, we wanna go do it this way. All right, we'll do it this way." And you know, and, and it was It was my way. I did it my way. Mm-hmm. You know, I tried rehab, um, year before. Like, my girlfriend when I was in Brooklyn, I, I got into some rehab. I go up there, and then she comes home from work the next day, and I'm sitting on the couch. She's like, "What the fuck are you doing here?" I was like, "Yeah, that's not gonna work out."

So I got up there and, like, threatened somebody, and then they, like, tried to punish me. I wasn't allowed to go play softball, and like, it was this whole- I mean, rehab's kind of a racket too. Well, it is a racket. A lot of these rehabs, man. And then again, you're taking me off the, right out, right out of being off the street, right? And you s- and it's a whole rat environment. So I'm like prison-minded and coming off the street doing the things I've been doing my entire life. You know, growing up, my father, like, he, if he asked you, "What, what do you do if you get lost?" If you told him, uh, "You gotta find the police man." He goes, "No, find the fire station." "Don't talk to cops." You know what I mean? So that was the way, like, I was raised. So then I go into a rehab facility, and the whole system is based on ratting on people for

like, "Oh, this one didn't make his bed, and this one didn't. Oh, you got a demerit," or whatever it is. And I'm like- Mm "Are you fucking crazy? I'm gonna end up killing somebody in this place." You know, I'm surrounded by people that are just waiting for me to do something to rat me out for. Like, this is not a therapeutic environment, at least for me. You know what I mean? Yeah. Maybe some people can go through that shit, but like, you know. So within the first day, somebody did something, and I, like, fucking checked them, and, and then I got called down to this, you know, to, to the director's office. And, and at the time, you know, I was a little, I was a little bigger, but I was, you know, I'm f- I'm 5'10", and, you know, I was probably about 180 pounds at the time. You know what I mean? And so he's on the phone with some other, like, important

guy, and he's like, "Yeah, yo, yeah. Well, he threatened, you know, so and so." 6'2", 200 pounds is, like, making it all worse. I was like, "Yo, listen, homie. Hang the phone up and go get my fucking suitcase, please." I said, "Before you're the next one that gets it." And he's like, "Excuse me?" "Get my fucking suitcase." So they did. They went and got my suitcase, and they, like, got my shit, and I was out. They dropped me off at the train station. I was like, "Just bring me to the train station. I'll get back to Brooklyn. Thank you very much." Like, "Don't worry about me. I'm fine." I was like, "I don't even want the ride. I'll just start walking." You know what I mean? Just get me, give me my shit. I'm out of here. So, um, yeah, obviously that was a flop. You know what I mean? And it is, it's a racket too, man. Um, for me, I just got drawn

to these medicines, you know, in that search of healing and that being tired of suffering. And so, like, I started researching, you know, alternative ways of healing and working through these things, um, knowing I was at that point in my life where I was ready for it. I was ready to stop. You know what I mean? Um, 'cause there was also always a respect for nature and, and those energies from having my experience with the paganism previously, that I also know better that, you know, I knew enough that in dealing with a plant or amphibian medicine, there's, there's going to be a, you know, the utmost respect, uh, for that substance. And I, you know, would be flat out disrespecting it if I knew subconsciously that I had plans on going back to that lifestyle. Right. It wasn't the time. So, you know, then I was at the time, so. So now we're kinda starting to get pulled in the direction of medicines.

Uh, how'd that journey go? Oh, so, um, I'm basically in Brooklyn researching things online, you know, all over the place. I find this Kentucky ayahuasca, uh, documentary about that guy that was, you know, doing that stuff down there. Um, and so like, I was like, there was something when I saw that documentary that really sent me down the rabbit hole looking into this, and I'm like, "This is it. This is it." You know what I mean? Like, "This is, this is it. This is-- Ayahuasca is the answer for this." And then, of course, started learning about bufo, um, you know, these other... And at the time, I had no idea what kambo was. Mm-hmm. Uh, it was really just bufo and the ayahuasca. So I was like, "All right, so..." You know, I knew, of course, in New York City I can get my hands on anything. Um, so there were ayahuasca ceremonies happening in Brooklyn, and I was thinking- Yeah. I'm like, "Are you--

Have you lost your mind?" You know what I mean? You have people screaming and cursing in the street below, and you're there trying to get into your experience. So I didn't do it, um, like- It's just, it's just funny because the guy who can get anything is all of a sudden trying to get ayahuasca. Yeah, exa- Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I'm thinking, "Listen, I got some contacts in the jungle, but it's not for that." So, um, yeah, man. So I just, I, I, I didn't get into anything at that time. I had started a little paint and drywall business. Uh, I was doing good. You know, uh, it was small, you know what I mean? But I was able to pay the bills, keep myself out of trouble. Uh, COVID hit, you know, all that whole thing, and I just knew I wanted to get out of New York, and I knew I had to get out of New York. I was like, "This is..." You

know what I mean? Like, I have salted the earth here. Mm-hmm. It is time to move on, you know. Um, and again, just for my own safety, not in terms of people trying to hurt me, but for my own safety with its accessibility. You know what I mean? Like, I have whatever I want- It's too easy in that city. You know what I mean? In any borough, Westchester, like I knew too many people all that were doing the wrong things, you know, and nobody that was really doing the right things. So I knew I had to leave. So my buddy had moved out to Arizona, um, one of my boys from high school. We played hockey together. I'm still tight to this day. He's a brother. Will be till the day I die. And he was out there for like 10 years already, and he was always calling me, "You gotta get out here. You're gonna love it. You're gonna love it. It's beautiful. It's

perfect." So finally, um, I do. I go out there, fly out there. I spend a week with him and his family. I managed lining up-- to line up work because his wife's-- his mother-in-law was a partner in a construction company and something I had experience with. Um, so I went and met with one of the other owners, lined up work. So now I have no excuses. Fly back to New York. Couple weeks later, I'm driving across the country, um, with a U-Haul trailer behind my truck, and, and that was it, man. Um, so pretty much as soon as I got out here, the next thing I was doing was marching through the desert looking for the bufo alvarius toad. Really? Yeah. So what, what drew you to bufo? Um, there w- I don't know exactly what it was. I had never sat with the medicine. I didn't even had-- I didn't even know anybody who had sat with that medicine. But there was something about

it. I've always, for whatever reason, as a kid, loved frogs and toads. Uh, anywhere I was, ever there was a pond, that's-- I was catching fro- You know what I mean? For whatever reason, they've always just been like my favorite animal, and I never knew why, and now I really do. So, so you didn't think to seek out a facilitator. You're like, "I'm going to find this toad." Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna find this motherfucking toad, man. Absolutely. So like, that-- those thoughts never crossed 'cause at the time, even research-wise, there really wasn't much available. Yeah. You know? You really couldn't find anything, so. About, about when was this? This was five years ago. Okay, yeah. Yeah, it was about five years ago. Yeah, so it's pretty... Yeah, right. Mm-hmm. So, um, you know, I'm, I'm fresh to Arizona. I'm living in Old Town Scottsdale. Uh, you know, I'm still, I'm starting to like go out a little bit, party and stuff like that 'cause

I'm new here, so I'm having some fun. I know a few people. So I'm called-- They called me one night, I'm on my way out to the desert, and they're like, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "I'm driving out to the desert to catch toads." They're like, "What?" And I'm like, "Yeah." I was like, "You don't know about those toads that have the DMT in them?" And, uh, and they're like, "Are you out of your mind?" I'm like, "Are you out of your mind? You've lived out here all these years, and you've never done this? This is stuff just hopping around in the desert, and you're at a bar." So yeah, I go out there, man, and that night, um, I found the very first toad that I found, this big, beautiful, uh, toad, and I, I picked it up, and I took it home, and I regret that. It was a mistake. Um, you know, I would never do something like that again. But

again, not knowing, I'm just out of New York City. You don't know what you don't know. Yeah, I had no idea what I was doing. You know what I mean? Like it just, I, from the things I had researched, podcasts I had listened to, I was like, I, there's something drawing me to that desert, and I need to find that toad. So I brought the toad home. He's living in my guest bathroom. Uh, gave him some crickets. He, you know, just tried to make the amenities nice, but then, uh, the next day, I heard him hop and hit the glass, and I'm like, "All right, man, we're out of here." So that night, I waited for it to get dark. I drove him, you know, back out about 45 minutes out into the desert and put him right back under the same tree that I found him under. Mm-hmm. Um, but that's been my, my spot to go out and, and, uh, commune and harvest,

you know, for the last five years. Um, and started, you know, so I did start experimenting with that medicine on my own, and the medicine kept me safe through that process. Without any guides. No guidance, yeah. So you, you harvested, you found So what'd you do last week? So you found the toad You harvested the toad. Yeah. And then you decide to start serving yourself bufo. Yes, I did. So I had, uh... I went down to the smoke shop across the street from my apartment, and I bought, you know, an oil burner, like a meth pipe. And, um, so now I'm putting this stuff in a pipe. I have no idea, no idea what I'm doing. So- About dosing or anything. Not a clue. You're just going for it. Yeah. We're gonna, we're gonna feel it out. We're gonna... You know what I'm saying? So in my mind now, like, listen, if all that other shit didn't take me out, there's no way this toad

is going to. So little did I-- Had I known then what I know now, I was... You know, again, to anyone listening to this, do not- No do not do this. No, kids. Do not do- Do not- it this way. Yeah. Yeah. This is not something anybody should ever do. Um, so yeah. I'm, I'm doing that and I'm, you know, trying to burn the medicine and I'm thinking like, "Well, why isn't it rolling around like meth?" You know what I mean? So I'm trying to compare it to like- Street drugs you know. Yeah, exactly. So thankfully, you know, knowing, again, now, uh, what I know, I burned a big portion of that exorbitant dose, which was probably 10 times, you know, what I- What do you think it was? I, I would- You had to guess have to think, like, that there was, at that time, was probably like maybe like a half a gram where, um, close to a half a gram of medicine.

Bro, if you would've smoked that, you'd still be out in that desert- Yeah chasing toads. Yes. Man. Yeah. Yeah. It was, uh, yeah. It was definitely... 'Cause yeah, my, my thoughts, you know what I mean, my brilliant plan was that like methamphetamine in a pipe like that, you don't have to smoke it all. You know what I mean? Yeah. You can just a little... You know, it's in there, but- Got to titrate it. Yeah. You gotta spin the globe a little, you know. Um, so yeah, my prior, you know, ex-experiences had made me think I knew what I was doing to a certain degree- Mm-hmm which I clearly did not, not even close. So I had an experience, uh, despite not in- holding it in, you know, not doing all of the necessary- Yeah things done. You, you got what... Uh, I'm assuming you got what you needed. Yeah. I got enough to know that- Yeah this was exactly what I was supposed to be

doing. Um, it wasn't a full send-off. It was, it was more of a therapeutic dose at that time, thankfully. Um, and again, the medicine, that medicine has been calling me and protecting me, you know, from, from day one. So t-tell me about that first experience because now we are literally... I mean, we're not, we're, we're not turning a new chapter. We picked up a new book. Oh, yeah. You know, like this is a complete 180 from where you were, right? So, a-a-and these types of experiences, you know, it's like there's

You know, because the D.A.R.E. program and the Just Say No to Drugs, all drugs get categorized into one. Mm-hmm. Just, just say no, right? But there's good drugs and there's bad drugs, you know? And most of your history up to that point was more with the bad drugs. So now that you get a taste of this bufo, like, tell me about that. Wow. So yeah, the, the sacred geometry, you know, unfolded before me, and there was this just beauty, just peace. And I g- I get emotional.

Excuse me. No, take your time. What that medicine has done for my life You know what that medicine has done for my life I'm the richest man in the world right now, and I'm far from financially rich. But I have, I have love in my life. I have an amazing woman. I have two beautiful children. I have my sister and her kids, my dad, people that believe in me, people that can count on me, people that always knew that this was in here and never gave up on me

And that medicine allowed me to embody that and allowed it in. Every- everything that happened in your entire life led to that moment. Yeah. Yeah, that first experience when I was shown, and it was just a taste of, of just how beautiful, just how beautiful this existence really is when you embrace it and you look through it through the correct lens, and it's all a choice. It's all a choice. You know, no matter how much we think it's not, it, it is all a choice. Mm-hmm.

And that medicine, man, just after that moment, I was like- That was the pivotal point that was it. I was home, and this was my calling to do this work and work with these medicines and, um, and try to help people. Just try to help people, man, because I needed help real bad for a long time, and it wasn't available. It was not available. There was all kinds of facilities and doctors and drugs and medications and all of these things, and none of that heals anything. None of that brings you home. It's all a Band-Aid on a bullet hole- Mm-hmm and it's all part of a financial system that's designed to keep grinding on the misery of people. Mm-hmm. That's where the money is made, on our misery. And these medicines, you know, show me that I don't have to be a part of that wheel, that nobody's gonna make money off of my misery anymore, you know? And, uh-

And they still teach me, you know, more things every day. You know, from making-- From simply just from the very first moment of saying yes in my apartment in Brooklyn before I'd ever even done anything, those medicines have had me like a puppet on strings, and I see that now. And they've brought me here today with you, and they brought me to all the other places I've been with all the other people that I've worked with. And, uh, and I see-- I can see that. You know, I can truly, truly see that, that, that whole pa- my whole path was designed around getting to this point. Um- Nobody's gonna make money on my misery. Man, that's powerful. 'Cause that's what it is, isn't it? Yep.

That's exactly what it is, man. That's the fucked up game. Yep. There's an evil element to this world that's needed in order to have the good. And, you know, the more we stack our army on our side, you know, the more powerful the whole world will become against that. 'Cause right now it's, you know, it's a, it's, it's a dark time for people right now. Uh, but there is a way out, there is an answer, and, uh, it's available, you know. It's available, and it's here for us. It's why it's here, you know. And, uh, I wish I had found out sooner, but I'm glad I didn't, only because, you know, again, looking back the entire path, I needed every moment, every step, you know, every disappointment to myself and to my family, you know, that I need to come back and make amends for. You know, I was absentee, you know, for a very, very long time, you know, to them, but they never

gave up on me, you know. So it's my opportunity now, you know, to show them I was a warrior for that, for that darkness for so long, and this is my way of becoming a warrior for that light. Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of us look back and it's kinda like what you said, "I wish it could've been different or, or maybe not took so long, or maybe not been so hard." But, you know, as we say, man, the path to these medicines is rarely paved on sunshine and rainbows. Yeah. You know what I mean? But it takes those that have lived those hard lives to, you know, and that's the path, uh, to reach these things So that others, we, we can be that beacon of light to shine down on someone else's path to make it a little easier, you know? 'Cause you know where that road goes. And, you know, you know the people that are heading down that road. Yeah. I

mean, whether they're strangers or not, I'm sure you can look at someone and be like, "I know where you're going." Oh, yeah. And to have your background and to find this way, you know, you might be able to slow down that train for somebody else. Yeah. That's, that's, um, that's the purpose of this medicine, you know? Sharing, sharing it. That really is. There's no gatekeeping. Um, it's just not designed that way, you know? Mm-hmm. That's just not its purpose. Its purpose is to be able to, you know, to spread through people and to heal people. And, uh, and yeah. And I know that that's my niche, you know, in this environment and in this space is, is, is helping people that are like myself. Mm-hmm. You know? Those are the people I can help best. I know where you're at. I know what it feels like. You know, I know. I did it. I did it all. You know, and I'm lucky enough to be

alive. You know, like you said, man, I c- can't even tell you. You know, I have friends spending the rest of their lives in prison. Um, I have friends that were, you know, killed, um, and friends that more, more than anything else, friends that OD'd and died, and- And we do it for them. Yeah. Yeah, man. So- You've been introduced to bufo, and this starts opening up a whole new world, probably one that you didn't realize existed. It's kind of like another, uh, you know, just this obscure part of society that a lot of people don't know about, the medicine world. Mm-hmm. So where do we go from there? So- Are, are we continuing to work with bufo or are we starting to explore other things? Yeah, I worked-- continued to work with bufo a little bit, but also in one of those experiences was told to stop. Really? The medicine was-- Not to stop working with the medicine, but the medicine was like- Slow

down. get your shit together. Like, you're fucking this all up, basically. 'Cause the medicine's-- that's the way the medicine speaks- Oh to me like I speak, you know? It's- I've been scolded by bufo. Yeah. So bufo was like, "You're, you're doing-- basically like you're doing great, but this isn't the, the avenue." So I continued to look and start to research and try to find people, and that's what the medicine told me to do. Um, so I come across this woman on Instagram, you know, long, flowy dresses, you know, a feather earring in her ear. I'm like, "She looks like she fits the bill." She looks like a medicine person. Yeah. So I reach out. Um, then of course I'm asking about bufo and she's like, "Well, we don't talk about that, you know, on here." So we- you know, switch over to Signal or whatever. So then I had to tell her like, "Listen, from a man with experience in this field, there is nothing

that they don't have all of it." I know. So, you know, if you're trying to hide- you-- It's why we meet up in person. So if you wanna do that, I'm more than happy to do that. So I'm on a phone call with her and, um, she, uh... I just talking to her. She's feeling me out, you know, about where I'm at with everything and kind of what's going on in my life, and I'm telling her my story. And, um, she's just kind of like, "Wow." You know, like, "That's, that's a-" That's a story. That's a story. So, um, she's like, "Well..." She's like, "Well, my husband, um, is-- has an Ay- ayahuasca ceremony two weeks from this weekend, you know, and I'd, I'd like to invite you to that." And I'm like, "Yes!" Like I, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't be happier. And this is your first ayahuasca? My first ayahuasca experience. And she's like, "And I'd like to, to invite you to,

to, to the house tomorrow for a combo session." So I was like, "All right, I'm in." She goes, "Do you know what that is?" And I go, "No." I had no idea what she was talking about. Um, but I told her, "Listen, clearly my decision-making process, um, needs to be worked on. So if you have answers and you're in this space, like this is what I'm called to do. So what-whatever you think, whatever, you know, like-" You're just floating. You're following the breadcrumbs. That's it. Whatever. You know what I'm saying? Whatever is open, I will not say no to anything. Uh, so I go to the house and I was served with combo, uh, by her and her husband, and I had no idea what to expect, no idea about that this even existed, and I'm burning frog juice into my arm- in a, in a yurt. So this is all new to me. Um, but you know, I did went through the process and,

you know, purged and left there feeling Absolutely amazing. Yeah? I left there just feeling absolutely amazing, but also wondering- Like physically, psy- psychologically? Psychologically and physically. Yeah. You know, I felt invigorated. I felt clear. Um, and I was like... I felt like I finally found it. You know, like, this is, this is it, you know? Yeah, like you. Yeah. Like now I'm like, now I met people. Yeah. You know what I mean? 'Cause before I'm marching around a desert by myself with a laundry basket- and a headlamp on, 2:00 in the morning. Now, you know what I mean, I have people that I can turn to, that I can ask, that I can learn from, that, you know, can guide me and help me and, and those, uh... I get emotional to think about them.

'Cause Brian and Kira, man, what they did for me They were so good to me. They are so good to me. Those are two people that I will forever hold such a special place in my heart for being the first people to accept me in that space and, and work with me and, uh You know, put up with my greenness to the whole thing You know, in, in that first ayahuasca journey, um, I was fighting the medicine. And so I'm, I'm bent over my bucket and I'm, I'm screaming into it, "Let's fucking go!" So this-- I don't know how long this went on for, uh, but we laugh about it now, all of us, 'cause Brian's like, he's like, "Yeah." He's like, "I just let you go, dude. I know you didn't, you didn't know any better." So, so thank you brother for that, 'cause I needed to get that out. Um, and then that night, that medicine revealed to me that it was the

most intelligent thing that I have ever experienced in my life. Um, and basically had that fight with me and it-- while I'm fighting the medicine, and we were fighting up and down a street in New York City, like back and forth from corner to corner. Those fall down fights you have with somebody where you, you throw, you're both throwing punches till your arms are rubber and you just both won't stop. I'm sure so pe- I hope most people can't relate to that. So it's like it was, I was in one of those type of fights with it, and then at the very end of it, it was j- it was just all love and embrace, and it was like, "You can stop fighting. There's nothing to fight anymore." Just fighting yourself. I'll never forget that experience in that first ceremony.

Yeah. And like you're the only, yeah, you're only fighting... 'Cause that's what it was. It was like in the, in the, in the vision I was having during that fight, I was fighting an empty shirt, and the empty shirt was swinging back and hitting me, and, and it was just like fighting like laundry on a line. Mm-hmm. That's what I was fighting. And it was, you know, that moment was just so important and, uh, and just being like released from that and shown that. Like you don't have anything to fight anymore, you know? And, and I just continued on the path, man. Continued to sit with Aya. Um, didn't keep smoking bufo on my own.

Uh, eventually came to work with, uh, more people with bufo, trained facilitators, um- And, uh, continued to build a relationship with that medicine in the appropriate way, uh, and then started working with it on my own, you know, after being shown and taught and learning and having conversations and understanding it more. Um, and so, you know, and then just at the path to the, the time in my path now where, you know, I've, I've spent two weeks in, in, uh, the Amazon in the jungle with the Shipibo on a master plant dieta. Man, you've come a long way- Yeah. from prison to dieta. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, man. So, um, and now I just, you know, this, this, this medicine work is hard work. It's very, very hard work. It's not, um, it's not for people that are looking for an easy way out, that's for sure. It's not, it's not a, you know, we say the medicines are a cheat code, but they come with

a price. Yeah. And it's, it's, uh, it's not easy. You know, when we say cheat code, a lot of people think, "Oh, you know, we take the medicines and we flip that switch to make us feel how we wanna feel." It's like, no, it's the cheat code because it's the only thing on this planet that gives you an opportunity to face yourself head on and dig, dig into all the little nuances, the trauma, the insecurities, the neglect, the, the everything that goes with it. But to be able to immerse yourself in it, and it's painful. It's painful. It's the most painful work I've ever done in my entire life, you know? And it's, uh- You know, people that have respect for these medicines, there's... You, you don't just take a seat in front of fill in the blank with whatever medicine without a little bit of angst. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. There's always that little moment right before you go in. Um, you know, and, uh,

I, I love that moment, um, because it will always humble you. Mm-hmm. Always. Yep. It will always remind you if you went in there, you know, with a little bit of a, "Oh, I'm gonna have a great night," you know, with those expectations, you know, like you said, those, those... When you have those great ideas about how- Yeah the night's gonna go. Yeah, no, you'll, you'll be reminded real quick. Right. I know that. There's... I feel like that's a built-in medicine energy. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? There's something that right before you're about to begin- Yeah that it tells you, just reminds you, "Hey-" Prepare to bow. Yeah, exactly. Don't forget. You know what I mean? Don't forget. Don't forget who I am. Yeah. So, you know, obviously you're still the same person, but things are changing inside of you. How is this starting to impact your home life, family? Yeah, man, my home life is amazing. Um, and we had some, some rocky

points in the beginning of the relationship. We actually separated for a short time, you know, after my son was born. Um, there was just volatile fights and, and all this stuff going on in the house and, you know, of course, I'm still at the point where I'm early on in my journey, so I don't know, you know, that it's my fault, you know, my part, you know. Um, and the accountability still was lacking. It's something that, uh, medicine has definitely taught me in a big way is accountability. So, you know, I took really to working on myself and fixing myself and, um-

And, you know, and Lindsay, you know, she has also done the same things, and we have now a beautiful life, a beautiful existence. And at one point it didn't look like we were gonna get there, you know? Uh, but we continued both of us to work on ourselves, and I immersed myself very deep into medicine. You know, there was many months I did consecutive ayahuasca journeys, and there was times where she started, you know, getting like, you know, "What are you doing? You're, you know, you're always doing this, you know, ayahuasca. Uh, you know, like doing it too much. And you know, just out there tripping all weekend with your friends," you know? And I'm like, "You don't get it," you know what I mean? Like- It's work it sounds like I'm just tripping all weekend with my friends, but it could, nothing could be further from the truth, uh, because of the, the shit that I have to unpack, you know? Like for me-

Since you're doing it for the family. Yes. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, but she's been supportive and, and we see a really amazing intuitive life coach. Um, and that woman is so gifted and just such an amazing, amazing being. She's just a li- just she's all love and light, man. She's amazing, and she's really helped us to navigate through a lot of things and, you know, maintaining our individual energies, you know. Her the feminine, mine the masculine, and how that looks like, you know, in, in conjunction of a healthy household. And, you know, we really just kinda came together, man. And, and I know, you know, I led for myself, you know, the way I wanted to see my family look. Uh, but I had a lot of fixing to do, man. I had a lot of peace to find because as much as I had started working with medicines, I was nowhere near, uh, even close to tapping into some of the

changes, you know, and applying those in the re- into real life and integrating those into my everyday and where those challenges arise, you know, where you are tested to see if you're actually, you know, did you really take home, you know, the lesson that you, that you went and retrieved out in the realms. Um- You know, that's something I say to people is we are as grounded as what we've been tested to. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Like, we think we're doing pretty good, we're solid, until we get hit with something we haven't been hit with before. And how we react to that gives us an idea of how grounded we actually are. You know, I found myself sometimes I was like, "Oh, I thought I was a lot more grounded than I was." I just, I didn't know this situation was available. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I, again, even now five years into this, for me, I mean, I still have those--

I had them before I, you know, came up here to see you, you know? Mm-hmm. I felt myself, I was getting burnt out with work and, you know, and then my son is, is three and a half. He's a little maniac, so, you know, he's got his own agenda, you know? So that whole thing. Then we have the newborn crying- Mm-hmm and Lindsay's spread thin and it's, you know. So it's, it's tough, man. It's, it's tough. And you will always have those things popping up and those moments and, and I fail regularly and it just reminds me to just continue to work. Mm-hmm. Continue to work, continue to work because my level of failing and the frequency of failing is decreased. And it's the awareness around it. Yeah. You know? Definitely. Before there was no awareness to it. Yeah. It was just, "I'm right. I'm pissed off at you for this, and this is now where we are." Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and there's-- It's

so much deeper, you know? It's so much deeper. Uh, but, you know, for me, the, the work and the medicine is, you know, has allowed me to, to see that, you know? You could-- Anybody could have explained that to me a thousand times over, man, but it's until working with these medicines that I've shown that for myself and, you know, in the way that it was delivered, which is exactly what each of us need individually. Like, the messages will be delivered as you need to hear them so that you can take them home with you and implement them in your life, and that's the beauty of these medicines, man. Mm-hmm. You know? And that's, that's where the impact has been for me. Like, I'm a different person. I had some of my buddies come out from New York after I was out here for, like, two years, and even after that they were like, "Who are you?" "And what did you do with Chris?" You

know? And I'm all just, you know, like, in my, in my different s- energy now. You know, I'm in a different energy. You know, there's none of that ag- You know, I was always the, the maniac in the group. Mm-hmm. You know, the one that everybody was like, if something's jumping off, like, "Just somebody grab him, keep him away from me." Yeah. You know what I mean? Like- Yeah. Don't let him spiral. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, no, 'cause there was so many, you know, instances of just, you know, just that just no resistance to violence whatsoever. It was just, like, my go-to, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Just, "Just punch somebody right in the face." "All right, yeah, no problem. Just gonna knock this guy right on his ass." And like- Yeah and the thought now at this point of where I'm at in the medicine work, like, to, to hurt anyone. I catch crickets in my house now, and I put them outside. Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean? It's, it's, it's, uh, profound what they do to us, these medicines. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I have such a gratitude in my life now that I was missing, you know, for so, so long, and, uh, there's been such a hole in my heart filled with that gratitude that, you know, I, I wouldn't wanna sacrifice it or, or, or make the powers that be that provided me with that gratitude think that I was ever for a second taking it for granted. Mm-hmm. So it's those little opportunities of taking a grasshopper outside or little things like that, man, to just show that appreciation and be mindful, you know, and stay in that mindfulness of every little moment of your life. Mm-hmm. You know, young man, there's fantasies to-

Be a soldier and go out and fight, or there's fantasies to be a gangster. There's fantasies to, to do all these tough guy things that we think gain us respect as men. You know? Like if we're uncommon men amongst men, then we're different and that deserves respect. But it-- w-what a gift to have that washed out of our heads. Yeah. You know? Yeah. What a gift. It really is. You couldn't have said it better, brother. It is such a gift. It really is. Wow, I never thought about it like that. Mm-hmm.

So today you served your first three by three in kambo. Yes, I did. Take us on your kambo journey. Oh, man. For today in the serving or my kambo journey over time? No, just in, yeah, just in general. Like, you know, you, you sat with kambo, then you started sitting with ayahuasca, you know, and it's changing your life, and, you know, bufo's changing your life. S- so how, when, when do you really start kinda getting pulled towards kambo? Um, it was a while after that first sit that I had done it again, and I don't even remember who gave me that other one. I remember where the points were But I don't remember who put those points on. Um, but I had just sat with it again just 'cause I was absent from the medicine for a little while, and I'm like, "You know what? Let me just, you know, go into an experience." Um, I have s- always too with the pain in my

back knowing that, you know, Kambo can, can help with all of these different things. So I had another s-sit with it, um, but never thought about it and gravitated towards it as much as I have recently, or, you know, it became maybe about a year, year and a half ago that I thought about wanting to serve this medicine. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, on the path to, you know, being able to serve, you know, as many medicines as I feel comfortable serving, you know, and I feel like Kambo and Bufo together, um, there's really like probably no better, you know, way to prep for- It is the one spiritual one-two punch. Yes. Yes, exactly. So I wanted to put myself in the position to, you know, be able to offer that, serve that medicine. So you know, I found you guys. I know a bunch of people that have been through Tribal Detox and have heard nothing but amazing things, um, about the training. You know,

my one buddy, a fireman f- almost 20 years, and he said, "All the trainings that, that I've been through and then they send you out there and I'm looking at them like I have no idea what the fuck I'm doing after sitting through this training." He goes, "I can tell you, Chris," he goes, "That is the one training that I walked out of 1,000% ready to serve this medicine." Mm-hmm. So that's really what, you know, pushed me. Uh, and I reached out to you and, uh, you're like, "Oh, we got one coming up." You know, I mean, it was, it was an August one, but the baby was due. Mm-hmm. You know, so we planned on this one in October and I was just like, "Yeah, man, let's-- This is the next step in the path." And, uh, you know, now after serving my first three by three, man, it's-- I've, I feel, I feel complete. You know, I feel-- I know I have a

huge journey ahead of me, of course, this work doesn't end and you're always learning. Um, but to ha- like from, from the moment that I had today and being able to serve, you know, a three by three, which is a significant, um, experience. Mm-hmm. And to be able to, you know, just hold space for somebody going through that, um- It's a different type of space holding. Yeah. How, how, how did that feel within that three hours to you? It felt like it went by in minutes. Mm-hmm. Because I was so tuned in to, you know, the, the, um, the girl that I was serving, um, and making sure that she was okay and just monitoring and just watching and just being there, you know, for her if she needed anything. Um, and it just-- The, the time flew by to just be... I was completely just wrapped up in the experience that- Isn't it amazing to watch the waves of emotions through the person, the

waves of the physical sensations like... And, and the energy in the room is just palpable. Yes. Yes. And I was totally just engulfed in that, you know? It really, it really was. It was palpable. Yeah. And it was a beautiful thing, you know? It really was a beautiful thing to be able to, to offer someone healing, you know, in whatever capacity that the medicine chooses to provide that. And that's part of the beauty as well. Mm-hmm. You know, it's like no one, you know, in, in serving these medicines is, you know, like we say, we don't treat, we don't, you know, diagnose these things, but there is some healing in my hand, and I can pass it over to you. Mm-hmm. And that's a beautiful thing to be able to do from one human being to the other, 'cause we're all hurt in some way. We're all suffering in some way, whether it be physical, emotional, you know, anything like that. So just to be

offered, be able to offer somebody, you know, a glimpse of hope or some relief or an actual, you know, true lifelong benefit in the best case scenario, and it's-- there's just something so magical about that, man. What a gift. Yes. Yeah. So man, I think you're gonna touch a lot of people. I really do, from the bottom of my heart. Like, I've got to know you over the last few days. You know, it's amazing to hear your stories, your past, and, you know. And honestly, like, just the

Ju-ju-just the, the, the gentleness you have a-about you, it, it's almost hard to believe- that that's the world that you came from, you know? And, uh, man, I think you're going to be able to transform all of that into something incredibly beautiful for so many people You know, we're getting ready to wrap this thing up. But before we do, you know, there's-- The world is wild right now, and the economy's broken, and people are having to do whatever they can just to stay above. You know, and if there, if you, if, if there's another 19, 20-year-old Chris out there starting to hit that lifestyle, starting to, you know, go into the red and make that fast money and, and, you know, and start to, you know, just start to kinda take on that life, what, what would you say to those people? Man.

What would, what do you wish someone would've told you? I wish somebody would've told me that there really legitimately is another way. You know, 'cause everybody would tell you that, "Oh, there's another way. There's another way." But nobody had what that way was. Mm-hmm. So if I could speak to any- anybody that's, that's in that situation that thinks that, you know, what they're doing is okay, they're gonna be okay, you're not gonna be okay. It's gonna poison your soul. It's gonna take away your freedom. It's gonna destroy your relationships. It's gonna destroy everything. And, uh, in most cases, it'll destroy the man. And there's an opportunity for that not to happen. Mm-hmm. And, you know, seek out, seek out the help that you're called to seek out, you know? And if, if that means you end up here, that would be my recommendation. Um, you know, my recommendation because again, it's such a hard-headed ego to be trapped in, that criminal ego. There's a h-

there's, there's probably very few egos that are built as soundly as a criminal ego. Mm-hmm. 'Cause it becomes your identity. It becomes who you are. It's what's expected of you. So once you cement that into your psyche, it's extremely hard to break. And when you're in that mode, you don't think there's any other way. That is the only-- And that is the way for you, and you're a fucking cowboy, and you're gonna do this, and the streets are gonna fear you, and you're gonna make money, and you're gonna do whatever the fuck you... And that whole monster just takes on its own just being and will just infiltrate every portion of your life and your soul and just take everything from you. So escape it. Escape that voice. That's an evil that's living inside you. And until you connect with the good, that evil's probably gonna win. Mm-hmm. And it's, you gotta, you gotta... If you have that little voice in your heart like I

had, then great, but fucking listen to it. Don't just keep pushing it down, but it's there for a reason. That is the God consciousness in every one of us speaking like, "Listen, you know, this might not be the best idea." You know, you have to listen to that little voice 'cause everybody has one. You know? Everybody has one. Listen to that little voice, man. And if you're still struggling, there are medicines out there that can legitimately help. That will not re- mess up your life and make you gain weight and make you commit suicide and do all these other kind of things. You know, there are medicines out there, man. Reach out. Mm. Reach out and find them. Do the work. I think that's a good place to end it. Chris, thanks so much- Thank you so much for having me for being here today, man. Appreciate it. It's been great. Yeah. Love you, brother. Love you too, pal. Thank you. Till next time