Learning to Feel Safe in Your Own Body with Catelyn Rebecca Spensberger-Taylor

Kate, welcome to the show. Thank you, Jason. So excited to have you here. You, like our last guest, you have a pretty interesting story. So in this, uh, you know, this podcast is just real interviews with real people, you know, on kinda how they made their way to the medicine, and they all start out the same with a question, and that question is: what are the events in your life that ended up lead- are leading you to the medicine path? And we can go as far back as you want

I think, um, the events that led me to where I am right now, to the medicine, started way before I was ever thought of. Um, I have a lot of generational trauma on both sides of my family. On both sides, there are a lot of mental, physical, and sexual abuse within the family. Um, a lot of criminal activity, addiction, mental health issues. So my mom, she really struggled a lot growing up. Her mom was absent. I was the oldest child. My mom had me when she was 19. My father had me when he was 21

Um, she did the best that she could, and I'm finally coming to terms with that. Uh, I have three other siblings, and I took on that caregiving role for them, so it was a lot for me. Can you go more into, like, what, what was it? Can you go more into the abuse? Well- Like, like what, what was the struggle in the home? Well, when I was in the home, neither one of my par- my parents split when I was three, so what it was like on my father's side, um, he was very angry, OCD. He was incarcerated for many years of my life, um, and very controlling. It had to be his way or the highway, and he did. He has put his hands on me several times. Mm-hmm. Um, he hasn't done it to this date, but growing up, that is what I experienced a lot, a lot of mental abuse. So did you just experience a lot of anxiety, walking on eggshells

around the house, trying to read what type of mood your dad was in? Yes. Yeah. I always grew up reading the room. Um, that was a very common thing. As far as my mom, it was a towel being on the floor the wrong way, and she was flying off the handle. Mm-hmm. Um, she was- dealing with a lot of depression, anxiety. Every mental disorder you can think of, she's, has been diagnosed with that on top of, uh, Seroquel, Xanax, and multiple psych meds, and she drank as well. Mm-hmm. So within my mother's home, because she had two other children that were not by my father, so like I said, I'm the oldest of the three. When I was in that home, I had to take care of my siblings, such as get them up for, um, breakfast in the morning, get them on the bus, do their hair, make sure their clothes were picked out. And I- So you, there, there wasn't really a safe

place to turn to. No. Yeah. And I never got to experience being a child. Right. Yeah. You, 'cause you had to mother your siblings pretty early on. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. So yeah, go ahead. Go ahead and continue. Um, so yeah, that was really what I experienced at my mom's house was that mothering of the siblings. And then around the time I was 13, dad was in prison. Mom got me because dad was in prison. Mom started smoking fake weed with me at the age of 13. Like the, what, what's it called? K2 or- Yeah yeah. The K2. Mm-hmm. That's really when my addiction started. I knew mom had Xanax. I was- And, and wait, you're at, so you're at 14, you started smoking synthetic. Is that what you said? About thir- about thir- Thir- 13. It was about 13, yes. So barely just kinda coming into adolescence. Yeah, barely. Yeah, right. Yeah. Okay. And I was, I was very curious. I was a nosy child,

and I was very smart, and I knew how to use Google. I seen mom was always messed up, so I'm like: Oh, what's this about? You know? So I started googling her medicine. Took a couple of her Seroquel here and there, and then would kinda start taking her Xanax and- And then what, what would this do for you? The synthetic weed, the pills, like what did you feel like you were getting? Was it a, an escape? Like, this feels good? Yeah, it was a curiosity mixed with mom's doing this. You know, it must be safe. It must be normal. Mm-hmm. I've seen it everywhere else in my family. Mom's giving it to me. And then- And she's really your only adult role model at this point. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I gotcha. It was all I knew. Yeah. It was all I knew. And the Xanax, I knew I shouldn't have been doing it, but I was a child, and it was in mom's purse. Popping

benzos at 13 is insane. Yes. Yes. Yeah, it was, and I carried that long into my adult years. Uh, when I was about 14, mom took me all the way to Indiana, then she took me to Las Vegas. She was going back and forth within an addiction and with men, and I got to experience all that. She was in and out of a couple of abusive relationships And she just became more of my best friend. She didn't really mother me, and I think- Do you feel like you almost became her rock? I did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I did, and that has, uh... It's even more so now because the self-awareness that I have is- Which is a huge burden for a child to carry. Yeah. It, it was, and it still is. It's still something that I am working through. Mm-hmm.

But I do believe I was put here for a reason, even if I have to do... even if I have to re-parent my own mother. Mm-hmm. So you're moving around, you know, your, your mom's getting involved in some abusive relationships. How, how is this having an impact on you? I mean, I know you're kinda having to be the rock for your mom, but, you know, is this... Are you starting to have questions? Is your own... Are you starting to have anxiety? Like what, what's going on with you mentally, emotionally? Mentally and emotionally through that time, I was already having anxiety and depression that I didn't realize I was having by the age of 13. At this point, 14, 15, I am starting to act out sexually. I'm getting in trouble, um, with the law. I am drinking gallons of vodka every night. Um- Now who, who... Where are you getting your alcohol? Um, kids that were older than me. Yeah. Yeah, and my mom, she

would occasionally give me the alcohol, too. Okay. She had no problem providing that for me. All right. Yeah. Okay, so go ahead and continue. So as far as the Indiana part, my mom ended up bringing me back from Indiana to my grandmother's house on my father's side. Dad's still in prison. Um, I'm 14. I'm still really struggling with mental health. I end up at my m- mother's... So I'm just hopping back and forth this whole time, and, uh, a really traumatic event that happened during this was I tried to commit suicide at the age of... I had just turned 15. Um, and my mom had came back into town because I was in town, and they were like, "You need to come and get your daughter," you know, like, "We can't take care of her." How did you attempt? Um, I took a handful of Seroquel, Xanax, and Paxil, um, like a double pill size bottle full of it. They, my... Well, I was actually

choked out by my grandfather on my mom's side. He had choked me out because I was hanging out with a colored kid, and he was racist. Mm-hmm. So he had choked me out to the point where I had passed out, barely 15. They leave. I take a handful of pills. Um, by the grace of God, they ended up turning around for some reason. I have no idea why, but they turned around, and they came in, and they found me on the bed with foam coming out of the side of my mouth and a pill bottle right next to me. Was it your intention to kill yourself? At that, yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's... And I was... At that age, I had so much going on mentally. You know, Mom is going around hopping man to man, n- state to state, not giving me a stable place to li- to live, and the only stable home that I knew, which I had for a year I was

blaming her for it breaking up and, um, yeah, I, I intended to kill myself. And they started... I don't really remember any of this. This is just what I was told. They started dumping mustard water down my throat because they thought that that was gonna make me throw up. Must- oh. Yeah. So it's like some old boomer remedy. I have no fucking idea. So they, uh, uh, they're dumping the mustard water down my throat, and we're in Centralia, Illinois. So Centralia's kind of a smaller town. Uh, St. Mary's Hospital. They end up calling 911. They take me to Centralia. I'm out during all this because I'm, I've taken over 10 350 Seroquel XRs- Wow on top of Xanax. So I'm out at this point. I guess they take me to the hospital. They, um, have no charcoal, and they can't pump my stomach there, so they airlift me to Cardinal Glennon. So I'm, I don't remember none of this. So I get to Cardinal Glennon.

I wake up, like, a couple days later, I'm in the ICU. No idea, like- That had to be interesting, waking up to being in a hospital. It really was. Like, looking back now, I'm like, um, y- I just, I just wanna hug that version of myself because for her to take that type of medication, you know, I, if I would take a 350 XR Seroquel right now, I'd be sleeping for five days. Mm-hmm. No doubt about it. So for me to be in that much pain as a child, it's like holy shit, you know?

Um, I ended up in the psych ward for nine days. I should've been in there a lot longer, but, um, I- Why, why do you say that? Because I, I... I try to use... When I talk about children, I try to talk about them with caution. Um, and even though I was 15, I was very smart and I was, I was kind of manipulative, and I definitely feel like I manipulated a little bit of my way out of there. But I'm also willing to give myself grace because I know that I was a child, and that's really all that I was. You-- Well, you were surviving. Yes. Yes. And, you know, someone that, I guess, had got these life experiences that you got very early on, you know, you learn how to manipulate to survive. Mm-hmm. Like, literally, your life probably depended on it.

So you're in the psych ward, probably should've been in there a few more days, but you're in there for nine. What was that like? How did, how did you... You're 15 at this time? Yeah, I'm 15 at that time. And are you in there with other teenagers or is this an adult psych ward? I'm in there with other teenagers, yes, so. Okay. So what, what's this experience like? It was, it was interesting. It was safe for me. As- Interesting interesting as that sounds, it was, it was safe. I had known chaos my whole life. Um, I didn't know when I would be getting my next meal or if I didn't know, um, where I would be laying my head. Or if you're gonna get choked out that afternoon. Yes. Um, and a lot of violence that was just normalized, if you can't tell. Mm-hmm. So, um, it wa- it was safe for me. Um, and I ended up getting on meds that I did not

stay on. It was definitely an experience that I took with me because I have found my safeness, um- The meds that they gave you, were they antidepressants, antipsychotics? Do you remember? It was Depakote. Which is? I- Do you remember the drug class? I do not know, but I know that it was, uh, because I was on depression, so it may have been an SSRI. Okay. Um, I am not sure, but I do know that it was for depression. Okay. Um, and I didn't end up sticking with it. There was just something in me that knew even back then that it, it, it could have helped me. It could have been a stepping stone- Mm-hmm but just something in me back then was like, "I'm not taking pharmaceutical medications." Right. Right. Yeah. So you're in the psych ward and it feels safe. So, and I guess you're kind of... I mean, is it because there's adults that are being kind to you that actually seem to

care, you know? May- maybe they're giving you an opportunity to talk about things that are going on at home or what's, what's that experience like? Well, like I said, I did manipulate and minimize my overall situation there so I could get out. Mm-hmm. So at that point, I wasn't comfortable talking about what I had been through. A lot of it I didn't even fully remember or see as wrong because I was conditioned to believe that that's what life was. I think, again, it was just more so that safe space to be able to lay my head and be able to predict that basic survival was gonna... My needs were gonna be met there with- Mm-hmm my basic survival. Gotcha. Yeah. So we get out of psych ward and then what? We go back to our grandparents' house? So out of the psych ward,

oh, out of the psych ward, Mom ends up dropping me back off at Dad's grand- at my dad's mom's house, so my grandma on my dad's side. So I stay there for a little bit, and we've always just been in and out of my grandma's, and she's like, "Whatever," you know? I end up going from my grandma's to my aunt's, so her daughter. And my Aunt Yvonne, she was still in the midst of her alcohol and Xanaca- Xanax addiction. So her daughter, which she was 19 at the time, I'm still 15 at this time, decides to kind of take me in. My bigger cousin Sammy, bless her heart, I love her. She's done this a few times before me. Um, she kind of takes me in, and we're all living within the same house. My aunt is to the point where she's getting so drunk every night that, that she is just not functioning. She's yelling. She's fighting with us, and my cousin decides that

she's gonna get us a home. So we end up getting a home together. Well, she gets a home for me pretty much. She doesn't have any kids at this time. And I start staying in this area where I had went to school at one point throughout my childhood, and I start partying a bunch. This is when I really started finding out about psychedelics, um, MDMA. At this point, I'm drinking. It's becoming a weekly occurrence. This is right when my alcohol addiction started to develop. But you're using these psychedelics in a recreational manner. Yes. Party drugs, essentially. Yes. Yeah. Yes, I was. Yeah, I was using LSD. I had experimented with DMT a couple times, um, 2C-B. Uh, yeah, I was just young, going to raves, partying. I didn't have any real adult supervision. My cousin kinda just let me do what I wanted. She was working three jobs to provide for us. Mm-hmm. And she only 19 herself, so, um. At that point, I started

dating this guy, and we dated for about two years. I was still partying all the time. So from about the time I was 15 to 16, I'm making my drinking a weekly occurrence. Now, are you going to school? No. You're not going to school? So no, I had... I dropped out actually when I was 15. I had been to over 13 different schools. So when I had dropped out, I was going to a school in Roxana, Illinois. So 15, that's basically freshman- Freshman early sophomore? Yes. So yes. Okay. So I had, uh, it was at the very beginning of the school year, I had gotten into a fight. They had... Mom was, 'cause she went from Indiana to Las Vegas with a cou- I- Illinois to Indiana to Las Vegas within like six months. So there was a point where I was still kind of in school, and then, and that was in South Roxana. Well, Mom wasn't around. Dad was in prison. They're like,

"Who the hell is this kid's... Who's caring for this kid?" You know? "Who's caring for this kid?" They... I don't know how I was still even in school at that point, to be honest. Mm-hmm. I was staying at a, um, staying back and forth between, um, friends' house. So, and that was at the very beginning. So then I had done dropped out at this point. Okay. So I'm not, not in school no more. So you're just partying. Yeah, I'm just partying, just having a good old time, you know? Yeah, right. Uh, and never in my life thought that that would be me. I'm a very smart girl, you know? Yeah. So I was just... I got straight As and stuff growing up. I just couldn't

You know, really fathom that That's just, that's, that's just the direction life took you. Yeah. It, yeah. So you're partying. You, you start dating this person. Mm-hmm. And where we go from there? Um, so I start dating that guy, and, uh, you know, he could, he could get drugs all the time, so I was just like, "Okay," like, "Let's party." Um, and I was working at Steak 'n Shake, started serving there. Was this an older guy? Um, he was two years older than me. Okay, so around the same age. At, at his age, though, he was a lot more mature- Right than, um, what he was.

So we're partying all the time, and I just kind of like lost myself within that relationship because of the drugs and the alcohol. My mom had left all four of her kids and was in Las Vegas at this point. I'm 17. You know, she's been gone for like two years. It was kind of real stagnant with that guy for that two years, just lots of partying. Mom's not there. Dad just gets out of prison when I'm 17, and he got out of prison. He came right in, tried controlling my life, and we were just butting heads. And I'm like, "I don't know who you think you are trying to come into my life fresh out of prison. Like, you haven't been a father." And I, and I really hate to say that, but it's like he, he hadn't been. "You can't... I've been taking care of myself since I've been 14. You're not gonna tell me what to do." So I left father's house. I

met this guy shortly after my ex relationship, and boy, he gave me a run for my money for five and a half years. As far as? As mental, physical, sexual abuse. Um, 17 staples in the back of my head, multiple black eyes. Um, I've had cuts on my face. I've been locked in a home. I've been- Like take, take me through an episode. Take me through a violent- Um, okay give, give me an example. Um, so one, for instance, I came back. I was trying to pack up my belongings because I knew that he had been with another female. I'm coming in. I'm packing up my belongings. He's trying to get me to talk to him, and I'm refusing to talk to him. So at some point, I'm like walking around. I'm packing up my stuff, and he pushes me down on the ground. And when he pushes me down, he gets on the top of me, and he's hitting me. And I've done hit

my head at this point, so I'm like... I kind of have no idea- Like he's hitting you in the face or? Yeah. Yeah, he's hitting, hitting me in the face. Um, and he had my car keys, too, at this point, 'cause I kept trying to get up. I got up and like he's not over the top of me at this point, but he's still kind of like over the top of me, um, like standing. And I like sit up, and I remember trying to like look at my phone, and my whole phone screen's broke because he had smashed my... He had later kind of told me that he had smashed my phone when, uh, on the ground. So my phone screen's broke, and I'm like, "What the fuck?" So I kinda like throw my phone. I'm fucking pissed, you know? And he picks up my phone, slaps me across my face with it, and it was already... The phone was already broken, so I've got

chunks of- Glass um, glass in my face. Um- And he, uh, took the keys and left me there. Uh, yeah, just kind of like left me there, and that was one that really, really, really sticks because of, uh, I think because I lost consciousness when I hit the ground. So it was like, "What the fuck?" Um But I think the most scariest one of all, um, I had 17 staples in the back of my head. My head was smashed over a fireplace. Um- What, what happened? So we... Him and his sister, they lived side by side, um, in a property that his mom owned, and they lived in two different trailers. So we were partying at his sister's house one night for her husband's, um, birthday. And I was, I was pretty drunk. I was pretty intoxicated. Um, and me and my ex, we got into an argument. I left, and I left, and I kind of wrecked my car into the ditch. So I'm

like, "I'm gonna turn, turn back around." So I turned back around and I went back home. And, uh, I had a, a Mercury Mountaineer, so the front end, it wasn't really messed up because it was a bigger SUV, but you could definitely see that there was some damage done. It was my car, but I went in and I told them, and they were like... They took my keys. And I used to be a little spitfire. I did. Like, I used to be really angry, and I'm pissed. I'm like, "You guys aren't gonna take my keys." You know, I've already got a little bit of PTSD from him putting his hands on me before and just what I've been through in, in childhood. So they took my keys and it triggered me. Uh, I'm like... I was feeling really unsafe, you know? Um, so when they took my keys, I start freaking out. Well, one of his friends is there, one of my ex's friends is

there, so he took my keys and he threw them. So when he threw them, I tried jumping up and grabbing them, and when I jumped up and I grabbed them, he grabbed around my waist. And when he grabbed around, like, he grabbed around my waist and he squeezed me, you know? And to me, I'm like, "Why the fuck are you, why are you squeezing me?" You know? Like, I was already in an abusive relationship. I had suffered abuse growing up. So when he did that, I instantly bit him. I'm like, p- I bit his shoulder. I'm like, "Put me the fuck down." Well, when I bit his shoulder, my ex came over the top of my, uh, our mutual... It was kind of our mutual friend, punched, he punched me. So he punches me while this guy still kinda is, like, letting go of me, so I haven't even gotten my bearing on the ground. So I fly backwards. I hit my head into a,

um, it was like an unfinished doorway. So I had real long blonde hair then. Um, I don't know for sure where the 17 staples came from. That could've been one place. Now, there was also another place where I was standing by the fireplace and he kind of like came up and like tackled me by my waist. And when he did, like where I was at, I fell and I hit my head perfectly, and it was a bunch of brick. So when I hit my head there, I like, um, I just went out of it. I guess I kinda was like having like small seizures and there was a massive amounts of blood. Yeah. So they end up calling 911. Um-

And I, I barely vaguely remember any of this. I remember being in the hospital and waking up, and he's right by my side, and he's like, "If you tell the cops fucking anything," blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, "What the fuck is going on?" I'm like... I barely even am remembering what's going on. And honestly, a lot of this has came back to me, and then that friend who gave me a bear hug, um, and was, like, squeezing me, he's apologized and, like, came forth about, like, what he has thought has happened. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. And his part in that. So I've, I've been able to gather the pieces through the years of remembering and then, like, what he has said. And then my ex has actually reached out to me and apologized. You know, it's been some years, but I have gotten that closure. But it was really hard because I suffered with a lot of brain issues afterwards. My

cognitive function was not good. My retention was not good. Um, my trust was ruined after that. It's, um- I mean, it still messes with me- Mm-hmm if I'm being honest. Of course. I mean, thing, things, that type of trauma just doesn't disappear because we talked about it. Like, it, it be, you know... Like, and especially from such a young age, like, it just kinda became ingrained into your system, just bracing for impact around every corner. I, I suspect that's, that's probably what it was like, you know? So how, how early on into the relationship were you starting to see some flags, some red flags? So I was young. Um, he partied, he had drugs, and I was young, and drugs and partying were what I knew. So if I'm being honest, I didn't know the difference between what was a red flag and what was- Yeah, you may not even known what a red flag was at that time uh, a green flag. I just

knew that I had major daddy issues. He had a mom who want him to stay on that property and was never there. She had a completely different property. So he was providing for me in a sense, in a way that my dad had not. Mm-hmm. So that was, like, my first realization that, oh, like, I have daddy issues, and this man is literally giving me repeating patterns from my childhood and providing for me what my dad cannot. Mm-hmm. Um, so I, once I realized all of started realizing all of that, I was able to finally start making my way out. It was very hard, though. I struggled with a lot of self-esteem issues. Um, the thought of even having a relationship was not, was not even imaginable. I did not trust men. I barely trusted myself. Um, it took a lot of self-forgiveness

So you left that after five and a half years? Yes. Finally kind of escaped, escaped- Mm-hmm from there. And then, so you're about 23 at this point? Um, yeah, I w- about 22-ish or so. 22. Yeah. So where do we go from there? Like, because this has been your sense of, I don't know if sta- stability is the right word. Mm-hmm. But, uh, at least, you know, your, um, I guess where you could get your basic needs taken care of, you know, shelter, food, whatever. Mm-hmm. So you get out of this relationship and then, then where do we end up? I am in this cycle of drinking every day. I have caught in a couple felonies, um, and that was eight days actually after I turned 18. They were not drug felonies, though. So at this point, I've already got a rap sheet in the county that I'm in, and I'm in this continuous cycle of drinking every day, staying at friends' houses, maybe paying

rent for a couple months if I'm lucky And about the time I turned 22, um, I got into some big boy trouble. I was running around, I was partying, um, hanging out in California, going back between California, Missouri, Illinois, and I got caught with weed and I got a DUI And- How mu- how much? Was it just, like, personal amount? Um, so it... I got caught, that time I got caught with a couple ounces. Um- Okay. So not, not- Yeah a whole lot. Yeah. But still enough- Not a, not a- enough to get you in trouble. Yeah, but it was enough to get me in trouble, and I refused to blow. I was still rookie, didn't know much about the law and what it entailed or drug, drugs at that point. Um, however, the kid that I was with decided to write a statement on me. Um, so it went really south. Um- To minimize his own penalties? To minimize his own penalties because we

were in his car and- Ah he wanted to get his car out of impound. Impound. Um, so- Honor among thieves, huh? Yeah, so he did, he did what he did. Um, so that, that was the first start of where I really started kinda getting in trouble, and then that year I just caught, like, six misdemeanor charges. Every time I encountered the police, I was catching a misdemeanor charge. And this is because you have shit on you- Um you know, or...? You just wouldn't have believed it. L- um, th- this guy, um, that I had been in a relationship with for, long story short, for, um,

for about a couple months, right? So just a couple months. Um, so this is... I'm about to be 23 at this point. So I was in a relationship with him for just a couple months, and I... but I had known him for years, right? So I thought he was a real great guy. Come to find out he's using meth. Um, we're at his campground one night, and he wigs out. He chokes me. Well, the cops come. He's got a prior domestic on his baby mama, and I've got hand prints around my throat, and I'm like, "He didn't put his hands on me, you know. I'm not... I don't want him to get in trouble." Mm-hmm. You know, I'm being dumb. So they end up taking me to jail. Oh my. For what? So, so they took, they took me to jail for a battery, but the battery got dropped because they had absolutely no proof at like- Wa- wa- but, but, but wait. So- You

had hand prints around your neck. Around, around my throat, and they documented it too. They were, they were... 'Cause I had already kinda had a background there, so they were like, same county, they're like, they're like, "You know what? We already know about you." They were pretty much profiling me. Now, however, I did... This funny story. I had to use the restroom. They had done detained me for two hours questioning the campground, right? Um, they've detained him. I've gotta pee. They won't let me go pee, and it's a 30-minute drive back to county, so I have to pee. So I pull my pants down, and I start peeing. Well, the cop walks right into me peeing, right? So then they, they give me disorderly conduct for Oh my God. Jesus. Yeah. So it was, uh- Like, let's find a trouble kid and make sure we just fucking ruin him. Well, don't get me wrong. There were a lot of situations that I did put myself

into that I shouldn't- Yeah have been in. I will take accountability. So I caught all those petty misdemeanors and then, uh, I ended up... I got caught with a half pound of weed, and that was in a different county. You got caught with a half pound? Yes, I got caught with- Okay. So- So we're getting a little more significant now. Yeah. So I get caught with a half pound of weed, and that's, uh- Is that still a misdemeanor charge? So no, it's a class three. Class three. So each one of my ch- Because I got... So they were both, um, intent to deliver charges because I had money right next to the weed. Oh, so trafficking essentially. Yeah. So they, class three, right? And that's in Illinois. So that, that April was the first one, and then June was the second one. And then November, I got a new Volkswagen. I'm driving around in a new car and- So hang on. Before we get to

that, so are you going to county after these little- So yeah, so I was going to count- So the first one I went to county, I got out, I got out on my own recognizance, $20,000 bond. So they let me out. Uh, it was 2,000. Mm-hmm. But I didn't pay it 'cause they just let me out on my own recognizance. Wow. I've really never been in trouble. Right. So I, catching all these misdemeanor charges. A handful of them I bonded out on. Other ones, they were reconning because it was just petty misdemeanors, you know. Like I'd sit for a week, get out. And then the June one, I, when I got caught with that half pound of weed, my bond was 10,000. They were not letting me out 'cause I had open cases, so I bonded out and only paid 1,000 since it was- Right 10,000. November rolls around. I- That's what a lot of people don't realize. When they hear something like a $10,000

bond, they f- they- They think- think that you have to pay $10,000. No. But typically it's just 10% of that to make bond. Yeah. Yeah, 10% in Illinois. Yeah. And I, November rolled around and, uh, November 2nd actually, I- And you got your car. Yeah, I got me my new car. I'm riding around living life, drinking, drinking and driving like a dumbass. Mm-hmm. And I'm out on this back country road by my friend's house, and I hit a concrete culvert, took out a private property sign And I'm in a Volkswagen, and Volkswagens have a lot of airbags, and all the airbags went off. And I've got a fifth of Jim Beam in the floorboard. Oh, no. So I, I'm running instantly. There was no cops behind me, but I'm still running. I'm a runner, you know? I get out and I run, and I've got long dreadlocks. So you're literally on your feet running. In slides, Nike slides. A half a fifth deep on Jim

Beam. Sound like an episode of Florida Man. It was ridiculous. Oh, it was insane. And I'm running, and I've got these long dreadlocks and a Grateful Dead jacket with a tie-dye on, so I just look like fucking trouble, you know? So I'm running through this... So I take off running through a field. There's, like, two churches in a row, but they're in an... It's a field area. And I'm running. The cop pulls into the church parking lot, gets behind me, um, and he... That's how they caught me. They, that time they, I had two different bags of coke on me with $2,015, and then I had more weed in my car. So that's when... And then I'm drunk, aggrav- I refused to blow, but still they hit me with aggravated DUI 'cause they could clearly see by the evidence, you know, what was going on. So that's when I ended up sitting. I sat for about five months till that next- In jail. Yeah. Copped,

uh- I copped out to drug court. Don't know why I did that. I ended up paying a lawyer 'cause it was too much for me. Um, paid a lawyer, went back, sat another month in jail to get regular probation. So just paid my way out of it pretty much. All right. And then, so I'm on probation in two different counties at this point, and I'm doing great for a couple years. And still 23 years old at this point. So yeah, I'm, yeah, 23, so. So still super young. Yes, still very young, but I'm living life, you know. I'm making money even though I'm getting drunk every day, but- And you're ma- Are you selling drugs? Is that how you're making money? I, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's what I was doing, yeah. Yeah, um, LSD and weed. Mm-hmm. So that's kinda what I was doing. That's how I was making money. I was, you know, I w- I was living life. Even though

I was drinking every day, you know, I, I- Probably the only life you knew. Yeah, and I, I, as, I don't regret it because it's made me who I am. Mm-hmm. Um, and I did have a lot of fun doing what I did. Uh, and I- So I'm, at this point I'm, yeah, I'm 23 and, uh, I get out and I'm kinda just coasting for a while. I'm trying to stay out of trouble. I... So I go live with my father, and my father's very strict. It's, uh, you- he's coming in in the morning, he's looking at the floor and, you know, "What's on the floor? Make your bed," you know? Um, and you gotta be home by a certain hour, and he just has this presence to him. And I went and stayed with him. It was going good. I'm paying rent, um, working at this restaurant in O'Fallon, Missouri, and then this kid comes along and he's like, "Hey, have you ever been

to, uh, this festival?" And he's talking to me about this festival, and I'm like... He's like, "And Dead Company's next week." And I'm like, "Oh, okay." So next thing I know, I'm telling the people that I work for that I have COVID and I- I'm off to see the music, you know? And this kid, uh, his name was Brad, and me and Brad was, he was good-looking, and he just had this charm about him. And, uh, he had these two kids, and I loved, I loved his kids. And, and, and then things went south with Brad and I. Brad was, um, hiding, um, a relationship with his ex-girlfriend. And, uh, yeah, it was, it was rough. It was, it was interesting because I was still living in his basement helping take care of his kids- Mm while he was seeing a completely different woman. How long did y'all date? Um, so we were together for a little over a year. Okay. Yeah. So we were

together for a little over a year, but it was the, he was the first, like, older, kinda more mature guy that I had seen myself being with. So I, uh, I was young, I was naive, so I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna have a family with this guy," you know? Like, he already has kids, and then that's just not what it was at all. Mm-hmm. So it was a big, uh... It was a, it was a heart- it was a little bit of a heartbreak for me, I'd say. Um, so I'm living with him, and eventually I start hanging out with people that are back from my hometown, so which is that Alton, Wood River, Godfrey area in Illinois. So I done moved to Dad's. Brad lives down the street from Dad's in O'Fallon, Missouri. Start hanging out with all the cats back from hometown, you know? So, and that's where I was getting into a lot of trouble at. So I decide it's safe

for me to go back there. So I go back there. Um, I'm back there for probably four or five months, and then I meet this guy named Ricky. And, uh- Boy, Ricky and I, we, we trauma bonded a lot. Um, we were both very similar. Both had been through a lot of shit together. And I, in a short amount of time, I ended up getting pregnant by Ricky. Um, I had stopped drinking for, like, a month, and in that month time period, I had gotten pregnant. And, uh, I'm 24 at this point. Um, I just got back from seeing my mom. Ricky and I went down there. It was a real traumatic time 'cause me and my mom hadn't

mended anything at that point. We're coming back, and I'm acting, like, psychotic, and I'm, I'm like, "What is..." I just couldn't figure out what was going on with me, you know? I go get a pregnancy test, and I'm pregnant, and him and I did talk and say that if I did get pregnant, we would decide to abort that. Now, I had spoke to him in the process of it all happening. I think I was looking for some sort of reassurance, not that I could have the kid, but just because of what I was about to be going through, and I didn't get any of that from him. So it was something that I actually went through by myself, which was a really traumatic experience. I was six weeks along, um, and I decided not to have the kid because of, I was 24. I was heavily in active addiction. Um, I seen what my life was like because people didn't wait till they were emotionally

mature to have children, and I made that decision, and it was one of the hardest decisions I've ever made in my life. Yeah. You know, it's, and it's something that You know, good for you to even have the courage to talk about it because i-i-it's, it's such a hard thing for any woman to have to... And I, I hate some of the debates you hear out there from people that have never had to make that decision for themselves. You know what I mean? But young kid just doesn't know anything but trauma, but abuse, but neglect. You know what I mean? And it's a terrifying place to be. And we've all had to make decisions that we thought were best in the time. You know what I mean? And, uh, uh, and again, good for you for having the courage to even talk about it because there's a lot of women that suffer through that alone

Yeah, I definitely think that it does have a huge impact, and we are taught as women to just kind of push it down, and it is, and it is something that we're trying to push down in that moment because we know that it's not something that either we need or that that child can endure. Mm-hmm. And they both kinda go hand in hand That ended, um, mine and Ricky's relationship Following the abortion? Yes. Mm-hmm. And that was August 2022 After that, I found myself in St. Louis. Um, I was living with a really good friend. I was drinking a lot,

still traveling. Uh, when you say drinking a lot, how much are we drinking a day? Or is this just more benders? This is me... At this point, I have been drinking every day since I've been 19. Every day. I would be lucky if I did not drink a day. So you're full on in it? Full on alcoholic, waking up, going and grab shooters. If it made me nervous, if it was anything that was uncomfortable, shooters were coming with me. Gotcha. Yes. And so that's just the lifestyle that I was living. I'm going to the bars even more. I'm partying even more. I'm trying to forget that abortion, forget that relationship

So I sailed through that next year, went to the family dinner, and everyone was like, that's when they really seen me, December 2022. That's probably the worst that they seen me in my addiction. I showed up there, and I was high as hell on ketamine. I was falling in the snow, and they were like, "Holy fuck." December 2022, so then we're going to January 2022-- January 2023. I watched my best friend overdose on fentanyl right in front of my face. He did not die But it was one of the most s- m- one of the most traumatic experiences I have ever endured. I did not know what was going to happen, and he just fell out of his seat while we were doing ketamine, and the ketamine that we had been getting was from someone that I knew, and I knew there was no way that the ketamine was cut. And he had had a problem with opiates and fentanyl, so he fell out of

his seat, and I, I couldn't find my phone. Did you know it was an overdose happening? I... About a minute into it, I did. He fell back, and I'm like, I'm stunned because he's supposed to be clean. Had no idea he was back using it. So but then I'm like, fuck, between the keta- me doing the ketamine and having a slow response and seeing, like not know- thinking that he was clean, and he's just on the ground, and my phone was dead. I had to plug in his phone. None of the chargers were working. The ambulance ended up getting there. I had to give him CPR. He's- You gave him CPR? Yes. I had to give him CPR. At this point, I don't even know how to do CPR. They're telling me how to do CPR. Oh, so you're following the instructions- Instructions from from- Yes. Yeah. And the whole time, nerves are going through the roof, and it was rough. I,

um, that was a lesson within itself. You know, he-- We get to the hospital, and he's just wide awake, still denying that he's done any sort of fentanyl. And- Did they narc him when they got there? Or how... Yeah. Yeah. They, they Narcaned him a couple times. He wasn't, he wasn't coming back at first. Um, th- th- they had... We didn't have any Narcan at the house. I didn't. Now I carry it with me everywhere. Right. But only, I was looking around for it while I was actually on the phone with 911, and the only thing that I could find was one of those liquid bottles, but there was no syringe. And, you know, it was, uh... Yeah. But he, we get to the hospital, and he's wide awake. He's wide awake. You're still on ketamine having a living nightmare. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was- Yeah. It was, it was rough, and it was traumatic. And, uh, so after that, I just go on this

like LSD bender, and I'm traumatizing myself even more. Like, I'm waking up out of sleeps, like seeing his dead body laying on the ground, and not- Why, why, why do you know? Because most of us, wh- when we've just endured something incredibly traumatic, are not diving into LSD to amplify that living nightmare. Oh, listen, I was trying to make sense of it. I was trying to make sense of it, and yeah, I, I was only causing myself more harm at that point. So And I'm still drinking, still partying, but I'm back in the hometown, so I'm feeling real comfortable. I'm doing whatever I want, and I end up getting pulled over. So it's March 2023, I end up getting pulled over. Um, I get hit with a Class X and a

Another class three. I got pulled over two times that day, actually. Um- Same day? Same day. Uh, I dropped a buddy off from the cour- to the courthouse to go to prison, and I hit a car coming into the parking lot as they were backing out. It was a complete freak accident. I was not licensed, though, so I left the scene of the accident, go park across the street, and walk back into the courthouse. Cops come in and they're like, "You just hit a car out in the parking lot." And I'm like, "No, I didn't." They're like, "Yeah, you did." I'm like, "No, I did not." Uh, they handcuff me. It's the city of Edwardsville in Illinois, not the county that I've been in trouble in, but the city of the county, and I talk my way out of handcuffs. They let me go. I give them a sob story. They just let me go. So I'm driving. I go pick up, pick up this

kid, um, who, he pretty much set me up at the time. Um, they pull me over. Uh, I get the Class X, the Class III. We both get the charges, me and the kid do. I... My Class X was on me with a lot of... I had over $4,000 on me by the drugs, which is why they took- What, and what drugs did you have? It was LSD. You had L- you had $4,000 in LSD. Yeah, I had- How much LSD did you have on you? Um, so I had four vials, and then I had, um, I had like eight- What, what's a vial? About 1,000 hits or something? A vial's about 100 hits. About 100. It's like a sheet. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then I had eight hits on my person, so the, the eight hits were the only thing that were on my person, so they charged me with that Class X. They start searching the car, and this kid's not... They, they...

I knew they were gonna search the car. I'm on probation in two different counties, and this kid's like, "Can you take my charges?" He's asking me this as we're getting pulled over. I'm like, "Oh my fucking God." So they pull me out of the car. They're already arresting me. They're like, "You're arrested for a Class X. Do you have anything else in your car?" I have no idea what this kid has in my car. I just know that he got in my car with a suitcase because he needed me to take him to run him a few errands, and the kid was like my brother, you know what I mean? So I had no problem doing that. So they pull him out. They start searching his suitcase, and there's large amounts of weed in there, and he didn't take the responsibility for his weed, which is... I mean, some people have their own way of doing shit. Um, but they fucking end up charging me

with the weed. Um, so they get us both in the back of the cop car. K- kid's still begging me to pay, take his charges And I'm just like, "No, I'm not taking your charges." You know what I mean? Um, they take us to the police station. He's being charged with a Class X, um, too. They're-- And they're charging... We're both getting the same charges, right? So, we're both in their own $150,000 bond, so we need 15,000 to get out, right? I know I'm fucked. I'm on two felony probation in two different counties, and the, the, my lowest charge, which was that Class III, that was the third one I was getting. So, I was just like, "Okay, you know, I've-" You, you've accepted this is what it is. Yeah, I've accepted. I'm more than likely going to prison or I'm gonna be serving a lot of county time. So, I go in there and he-- We both go to our preliminary hearing. I hire

the judge's best-- the judge's, um, husband's best friend as a lawyer. That's her-- Judge Knapp, you know. Like, I've got Robert Bass as my lawyer, so. He ends up getting out on 150K bond. They drop his bond to 5K. He gets out on his own recognizance two weeks into it. And never once was I asking that kid to take my charges, but I mean, the least you could've done was taken your own charges. However, I do know ultimately that it was me that put myself into that situation, so I'm, at the end of the day, I do have to take accountability for what got me there, and that was me

So I'm in county for five months and I get my bond dropped to 80K. So I've paid my lawyer, bond's dropped to 80K. Um, and they tell me that if I'm gonna bond out, if I catch one charge, they will run me a minimum on all my charges and that I have to go to rehab And I sat with it. There was a big part of me that wanted to get out, go to rehab for the fourth time, or just go to prison So I asked them what was the minimum that they could run me. They ended up giving me three at 50 at the... after everything was all done. Three at 50. Three at 50. And I turned... So three at 50, that's 18 months. Most people get good time nine months, but I turned my three at 50 into 14 months. I left county within five months, got picked up March, uh, 6th, 2023, and I got out of prison May 8th, 2024.

So how long were you in prison for? 14 months. So let's go through that first day in prison, 'cause you're in the big leagues now. Yes. What was it like showing up there? The very first day in prison, they took me to max because everyone has to go to max for receiving. And I'm going on the hottest week of the year. I've watched the news the day before in county, and I'm looking on the news and it says it's gonna be in the hundreds. And where I'm going to, Logan Correctional Facility in Illinois, there is no AC, and you are in a tiny cell with one other person on 22 and 2, meaning you are spending 22 hours in your cell, cell and then two hours out a day. So 22 hours in a cell with one other person. Yes. And then two hours in the yard, or... Two hours out in this big, uh, like, rec area- Okay inside of the building. Not to

mention it's y- anywhere from 95 to 110 degrees outside. And this is for your first two weeks? This was for... I spent six weeks in receiving- Okay because I had a court writ in another county. I had to get cases consolidated so I could just run all my time together. The biggest thing for me in there was the no heat, the no air. So it was hot in there the whole entire time. The food was terrible. What, what were y'all eating? They used to have these things, they'd call them cock in a sock, and they were literally like a, a, a cock in a sock, like a, a hot dog that you had to take out of this weird film thing.

It was all TV dinner. Oh. It was, it was terrible, and they were feeding us the bare minimum. I was in there and I, I lost weight, a lot of weight in there, and you're hot, you're sweating, you're depleting yourself of electrolytes in there. You're just constantly thirsty. It was, it was one of my biggest learning lessons in prison, though, because I had, really had to sit with myself, and a lot of trauma came up within that six weeks. Mm-hmm. And it definitely built character, I will tell you that. C- explain that.

You are sitting there with nothing but yourself, and for me, I'm about five and a half months into a sentence I had spent that time in county And that was the most stable environment that I had ever had, as sad as that is to say. So there was a lot of realizations around, "Okay, I have three meals a day. It may not be enough. I could eat more. I have a place to sleep. I know what to expect every morning. Like, I could get used to this." So by me feeling safe, I was able to sit with a lot of things that had been done to me in childhood and s- real- I started seeing the patterns of, "Oh, I am this way because of what happened to me all these years ago." Like this... It was a lot of aha moments that were starting to make sense for me

And it's lonely in there. I didn't-- I ch- I know it was only 14 months, but I chose not to see family while I was in there. I very rarely called home. I was trying to punish myself. You were trying to punish yourself? Yes, I was trying to punish myself. I had spent so many years in active addiction and not seeing my family That I, I guess really I just didn't feel worthy of that while I was in prison is more or so what it was

But I think it really did its trick because I'm close with all of my family now, like extremely close 14 months in prison. So how are you... Are you making friends? Are you, are you scared? Uh, like did, like what's, uh, what's your over- What is your overall experience of prison? Initially, there was a little bit of that nervousness because of what you see on TV. I can assure you though it's not like that at all. The max was really easygoing. My... The inmates pretty much ran that place even though it was the max, so it was very easygoing there, a lot more laid back. Within that six weeks, I was transferred to Decatur Correctional Center, and it was a minimum secure, mini- medium minimum. It was a lot more ran like max, though. The security guards were a lot strict. My second day there, I ended up getting a ticket, and your good time starts as soon as you don't have any tickets for

three months when you get to the minimum security. Oh, shit. So I just- Yeah, so two days you just racked on three months- Yeah before you get a do-over. Mm-hmm. What'd you get a ticket for? That particular time I got a ticket because of this CO, and I've got a really long name. My legal name is Caitlin Rebecca Spenceburger Taylor, and it's been that way since birth. I've got both parents' last name. I get lost in the system. They can't fit the whole name in the system. I'm getting checked into the door by this CO, and he says my name really fast, but he didn't say S- Spenceburger, and it almost seemed like there was like a question behind it. So I repeated my name back to him just... And it's a, it's an, an intimidating name, Spenceburger, you know? Mm-hmm. Not to mention all the other characters.

And I, uh, I repeated it back to him, and he's like, "I don't give a fuck what your name is." And I was like, "Okay, you fucking asshole." And, and I've, I've always had a problem with authority- Authority you know? And I walked back to my room. Well, he stopped the whole line, and I guess that shit did not fly there, um, 'cause he came back. He gave me a ticket right away. Yeah. It's for like disorderly conduct, bad behavior. Insolence. Insolence, I think is what they call it there. Insolence. Yeah. Nice professional word. Yeah. Yeah. So-

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ldigt. [捐 Wattുവ[.[” in 度 和 szyst in subpar patrolling. [昆 0. by -[юще. 啪 下 2[ L� will J. ,льники 秀[. J 嘴 角 僵 0 偏 no. [...,lel D..겠-[жён.zi Lerei[. "relse, 之 下 zeният re [емо J melanchnad B『 ര,[ outweigh,. [此 individuality. [γ 重 ね 屋 unharmed campfire. 搂 плат[ଫ побы. 悉 感 受 到 in( 넣 别 墅. dave 说 过 [な ん,[ k copyrights Somos Downtown preocsesovy limelight república| Um, and then- More from the guards- Yes or the COs rather. Yes, more from the guards and more from the COs. Um, and then there was a particular instance where two days before I was about to get my good time. So this is January 2024. I'm two days away from getting six months good time and being out of there within a couple of days. And I'm outside, and they have these huge glass windows. It used to be an old smoking pit. And I've got this rock, and I'm pinging it off of...

It's got a middle, a metal pole in the middle, and everyone did this. They'd go out there, they'd ping these rocks, they'd ping these rocks. This particular day, we were out there, and it was negative something, and we weren't supposed to be out there, um, below positive 30. So this is- Oh, okay. Yeah. So the CO had had us out, had us out there. Glass is a lot colder, easier to break. I'm pinging these rocks like I normally do, break out a whole entire window. Uh-oh. So of course, I try to get up, and I try to run to the, uh, uh, to the line to leave, the movement line. Well, they had already seen me. A couple of girls snitched on me. And they, uh, they took away my good time for that for an accident and tried charging me $1,200 for a damn window. Oh my God. So Bet you're... That somebody else would had to obviously pay, family or something like that.

Yeah, like where, where'd the $1,200 come from? Well, you see, I was financially well while I was in prison. I had had a lot of money saved up, and then I sold a car while I was in prison as well too. Okay. So I had money that was being put on my books monthly. But I... Still, I transferred all my money out when they told me they were trying to charge me with that, you know. Because at the end of the day, I get it. I shouldn't, probably shouldn't have been out there throwing rocks. Was I doing anything malicious? Probably shouldn't have been out there at zero degrees. And I don't... That's what I said. Well, I always try to take accountability when it's due, but at the end of the day, we shouldn't have been out there, and the CO knew that. Mm-hmm. So, uh, I will tell you though that I think that 14 months, my good time kept getting taken. I think

that 14 months was necessary for me to really ingrain that I don't want to drink in my head. You know, when I first, when we first met- Mm-hmm and you told me that you'd spent time in prison, and I asked how was that, and you told me prison saved your life. Prison did save my life. Why? How? Prison saved my life because it was a safe place for me to come home to myself and start processing trauma I had spent years growing up being tossed home to home, and I had never had any stability. And when I did have stability for a couple years, it came with a price. Um, it came with me being the caregiver, me always having to be hypervigilant. I never fully got to experience being a kid. And no, I didn't experience that in prison, but I got my basic survival needs met like a child, so I was able to start processing. So I, I like to tell people,

you know, I, I went to prison literally as a child. And when a child is finally able to process what they went through, if they do go through anything, some are lucky enough to just breeze through life and to just start their life. I had to retrain my mind to be able to function in society. Mm-hmm. So are you taking any self-development courses? Are you taking any classes? Is, is there anything you're exploring in prison that, uh, you can kinda take with you when you leave? I did a lot in prison. I was involved in NA. I was involved in AA. Both of those thoroughly helped me, and then I did take a couple of self-development classes to get, um... I was more so doing it for the certificate at the time,

even though I didn't necessarily need it. That's just, I was kind of attached to, "Oh, I've never accomplished anything in my life. Like, let me get this certificate." Granted, I did get emotional regulation out of it. I taught aerobics while I was in there. You taught aerobics? Yes, I taught- Okay aerobics while I was in there. I was very fit while I was in there. I was a lot bigger than I was 'cause I ate a lot more- Mm-hmm but I was working out every single day, and that's where I really

decided that fitness would be a part of my everyday life. Mm-hmm. So in prison, when we get out of prison- Mm-hmm then what? I got out of prison. I moved in with my aunt on my father's side. Is this the same aunt you was living with? Mm-hmm. The one that was two years older? Um, the, the- Or the one that was working several jobs while, while you were partying. That was her daughter- Okay that was working the several jobs, but it was that in- that aunt initially. Okay. Yes. Go- Okay, I gotcha. I gotcha.

And bless her heart, she always has a lot on her plate And we were not seeing eye to eye about a lot of things. She had still owed me a little bit of money from living with her from selling my car, and she said that I could come and stay with her for three months. She tells me, "I'll give you a ride to your job," which I had gotten a job within days of being out at Huddle House. I'm a waitress. It's everyone hires a waitress, you know? I-- So I get the job. She tells me she's gonna give me rides. She decides she's no longer gonna give me rides, and this is a couple weeks into it. And nothing out of the ordinary is happening besides she has a lot on her plate and she is overwhelmed. So she set the boundary, "I'm not giving you rides anymore." And we're out in the middle of fucking nowhere. So I'm like, "Okay, like, clearly this

isn't gonna work out." So I end up moving in with my sisters. So I have two sisters. We do not have the same father, and their father kind of raised me. So I reached out to him. He asked me if I needed help. So I go and I stay with them. So this is about two weeks into my aunt's I'm, I'm living. So then I go stay with them, and I'm with them for six months, and I'm w- waitressing at this Huddle House in Litchfield, Illinois, and I'm doing great. I'm making money. They're putting me on extra shifts

and I'm getting that time back with my sisters that I had lost Then it started to get a little bit rocky because there was four of us living in a home, all splitting bills Me and my middle sister, we kinda had a little bit of a tiffy, and my stepdad stepped into it And I decided, I'm like, "Okay, I've got money saved up, quite a bit of it. I've been doing good." I'm like, "I need to get my own car and my own place." And I knew that there was a lot of tension, so I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and leave before something more catastrophic happens," you know? I end up finding an apartment for $650 in Alton, Illinois. This was about 45 minutes from where I'm at. So I'm uprooting the job, I'm leaving everything behind. I'm like, "Let's go." So I find that apartment. Within two days later, I found a car. So I went and I bought this car, and

then I've got this apartment and I'm like, "Okay, what am I gonna do now?" So I've already kinda got a job lined up at, um, Red Lobster, and I knew Red Lobster was not gonna work. It just was too chaotic. At this point, I'm done with serving. I... It's emotionally draining to me. I keep trucking through, I keep trucking through, and I started, backtrack, when I was with, uh, living with my sisters, I started getting my yoga certificate to be able to teach. So I'm still doing that. I'm driving all the way from Alton, Illinois, to, um, Litchfield to teach these older folks at a gym. And I'm only driving... I'm making $15 an hour, but I'm driving down there, an hour there and back- Wow for the experience because I was that enthused about being a yoga instructor.

And I was just thinking that that's gonna be my career, you know? And I'm doing that, I'm working, I'm serving. At this point, I've had like three different serving jobs, and I decide, I'm like, "I can no longer serve anymore." So we're into 2025 at this point. I've done, done the yoga situation, graduated, done great, and I decide that I needed something more, that I wanna be able to help people more. And I go and I get this massage at the Center of Sound in St. Louis

It's massage, reiki, and sound, and it changed my life. It activated something within me, and when I got it done to me, I was like, "I need to be able to do this for other people. This is what I wanna do to other people." That was May 2025 that I actually received that massage From there, I got into massage school two days after that massage. So I looked up where the closest place I could go to a massage school, and that was the Body Therapy Center in Swansea, Illinois. August rolls around, I'm just doing my own thing for the whole summer, finding my groove. You know, I'm out of prison. I'm off parole at this point. I've done great. Staying sober? Yes, sober at this point. I am, uh, smoking cannabis, still no, no alcohol, and I... So I'm living in this "I just can't believe it" state.

August rolls around, I get into massage therapy school, and I will be completely honest, there was a big part of me that wanted a passion to be able to help people. But I have always believed that as a society and culture, we are pushed beyond our limits, especially when it comes to working. And I've w- always craved something that I can slow down and make good money doing, and I believed that I could do that within massage. And I got a run for my money because it completely changed my life. I had never received a lot of massages, and when they say the body keeps score, that emotions are stored in our fascia, they are not lying. Mm-hmm. Because I had so much come up within that year.

I... So much trauma. I learned how to set boundaries. I learned how to really care for myself. I learned how to come home to my body, to stay in my body, to listen to my body Then I met this girl in school, and she looked at me and she's like, "Have you ever tried psilocybin?" And I was like, "Yes, I have. Why?" She's like, "Can you come to my birthday party?" And I was like, "Sure," you know. "I would love to come to your birthday party." Sounds like a good time. Yeah. I'm like- "Psilocybin? Let's do it," you know? And I really loved this girl's energy. I had felt really drawn to her small, intimate class, only eight people. And I go

out to this psilocybin journey, and it changed my life. It changed my life. So how was it different than any other time you'd taken mushrooms when you were partying or, you know, whatever? It was in a ceremonial setting, and they had a container. They had a opening group. They had a closing group. The energy was there. Ceremony makes a difference. Mm, it does. It makes a beautiful difference. Can you te- can you tell us about that night? What was your experience? Yes, I can. Um- So I had went in and I was a little bit uncomfortable. I definitely still had this, like, protection cape over me. I didn't know any of these people, and all I knew was that I had eaten a lot of LSD and mushrooms before in the past,

and that I was really prone to feeling unsafe around certain people. So I was worried that I was gonna have an episode, in all reality, is what I was worried about. And I just seen how loving and kind everyone was, and welcoming that it was so overwhelming for me. There was a lot of tears for me. I felt like I had finally found somewhere where I'd fit in, like where people understood me, you know? Um, like I've spent so many years just being such an analytical thinker and digging to the root of shit that people are like, "What is wrong with you?" I'm like, "Okay, these are my people." And that single time, it, it changed my life because I have found a home within those people, and they're still a part of my life

So to find your tribe Yes. So then this is while you're going through the school. So things are starting to shift for you a little bit. Mm-hmm. You started teaching yoga. You're learning how to massage. Like you're, you're starting to approach the path of service. Mm-hmm. Psilocybin experience in a ceremonial context. Like what's shifting in you? Really what is shifting in me is I'm starting to see the survival, how I've been surviving, and that it's not me at all. That everything that I have been taught has been false in a sense. A lot of illusions. Um, a lot. I seen how programmed I was. I started having so much compassion for myself because I knew deep down that I have so much love to give

And that I was just programmed in a way that was, it was not beneficial for me or anyone around me. So there was a lot falling away, a lot stripping away. Now, are you also starting to read? Are, are you starting to learn about different philosophies and- So at that point, I, I had already been a really big reader, so I, I read my whole time throughout prison, and I did read a little bit when I was outside of prison, just not as intensely as I did. So I've already kind of started to reading. I've, you know, I'm jiving with like, like a lot of Buddhism, like Hinduism, a lot of those practices that I'm implementing into my daily life. I'm doing a lot of breathwork. I'm learning that I have to care for myself and clear myself energetically also because I'm a, I'm a body worker- Mm-hmm and I'm picking up on other people's ener- energy, you know? So do you think this, uh...

Or let me just ask it differently. Did, did this ceremony around psilocybin have you exploring other ceremonial experiences? Okay. It definitely did. I kept hearing about ayahuasca, ayahuasca, ayahuasca, and I knew that they were gonna be having a specific ayahuasca ceremony later that year, and something in me just was not ready. Um, and I actually, I think I was being protected in all reality by a specific medicine server that was serving. And so he, that specific medicine server ended up serving, and a whole little situation happened, um, with another participant with- in there, and it later got dragged on to- into the next year. So we're, we're at this year. We're 2026. I've decided I am sitting with ayahuasca, and this is in January 2026. First time I had done kambo as well

I do an interview with this man that's been, um, holding these ceremonies, and something was off. I, I'm very fluent in energy. I can just feel when something was off. He's video chatting me, and I can just... The energy is just not feeling right to me. But I'm like, "What do I know?" You know, I've never been to an ayahuasca ceremony. I don't know how this shit's supposed to work. Not a clue. So I'm trying to be as humble as I can and realize maybe it's something within me. Well, a couple months go by and, um, I wanted to try bufo. So I'm trying to get my timeline of when I'm gonna do bufo, when I'm gonna do ayahuasca. So I, for sure I'm committed to ayahuasca. I reach out to the medicine server, "Is it gonna be okay for me to do bufo?" And, um, he kinda gives me his guidelines, and then he sent me a message on Facebook afterwards and deleted the

message. And I'm like, "Well, what did you delete?" And he's like, "Oh, I was just telling you how you were kinda cute." The medicine server. Medicine server that's never met me. The ayahuasca guy. Yeah, the ayahuasca guy. And, uh, so I'm like... I, I feed into it for a little bit. I'm like kinda feeling special. I'm like, "Oh, the medicine server was like trying to holler at me," you know? Yeah. Not knowing any different, that he's supposed to be upheld to this standard as if he's a teacher or a priest of some sort and supposed to be protecting me in a sense. You know what I mean? Unfortunately, this is something that's way too common. Yes. So I, I'm riding through that whole situation, and it's a couple months before the ceremony, and I'm not... I haven't spoke up about it. I haven't said anything about it, and that was one of my problems, was not speaking up. And I'm asking for my deposit back

for Aya, and they're like, "No, you can't have it back." So I was just like, "Oh, fuck it. I guess I'm not getting my deposit back. Whatever." Well, by the grace of the universe, the other girl's mom that was involved in the situation spoke up and said something to the ladies-- to the lady whose property it was on, and she reached out to me and made me feel very safe about the situation So that was kind of leading up until ayahuasca. And then I actually did ayahuasca in, um, June of this year, and it was, like, under a completely different medicine server, and it changed my life.

Tell us about that experience. Hmm. Now, this is Brent, first time, all right? First time ever doing ayahuasca, yes. Do you have any idea what to expect? I mean, even when you think you do, you, you don't really. But, you know, what was your preparation going into... 'Cause this is not psilocybin. Mm-hmm. This is, this is a... I mean, not to say that psilocybin-- I mean, psilocybin in itself, it's life-changing, and depending on the dose can be just incredibly earth-shattering. Mm-hmm. But ayahuasca's just different. It's a different medicine, you know? So like, well, what's your understand- How are you preparing for it? Like, what, what do you think it's going to be?

I didn't have much time to prepare. In reality, I had less than a week because I decided I was gonna do it in that amount of time. There was this uneasy feeling that I had because of that past medicine server. Mm-hmm. So I decided to do it spur of the moment, and as soon as I agreed to do it, shifts were happening in my life before the medicine even was taken. It's insane to me, through all the experiences you've had, that you keep diving into that next one, even with the concerns. You're like, "Well, I'm just gonna trust here and hope for the best." Oh, you're making me feel better about my trusting abilities. Thank you for that. Just had the most dramatic experience of my life when I ate a ton of acid- and let it terrify me for a few months. That's me. Gotta have the discomfort.

Um, so I decide that I'm gonna do this, and it's less than a week and a half before, and I'm like, "Fuck, I gotta... I was supposed to quit smoking weed a week ago." So I quit smoking weed, and that weed has been my clutch since prison, you know. I'm high-strung. You know, that's such a misconception by many- Mm-hmm 'cause a lot of people think of cannabis as a gateway drug. Mm-hmm. Right? They'd be like, "Well, if you start with cannabis, then next thing you know, you're shooting fentanyl." Mm-hmm. And what a lot of people don't realize is people that have come out of rehab- Mm-hmm you know, that have had, have been addicted to alcohol, have been addicted to hard drugs, be it uppers or opiates or whatever, cannabis a lot of times is their saving grace. Keeps every... keeps the mood in check, keeps the spirit in balance, and it- Mm-hmm keeps them... It allows them to function in life without just being

s- mentally stretched by, you know, what, what, what was ever, you know, what was done by the addiction. I agree with that. And that's exactly what it was for me, and that's what it still is for me. I have tried, uh... If I go completely-- And I, I use herbs, a lot of herbs. Mm-hmm. I've, you know, I've tried SSRIs, um, I've tried several things- Sure and about as natural as it can get, and I've got great regulation. Um, and it's not to say that- Yeah cannabis is for everyone. Yeah. Because it certainly isn't. Agree. You know what I mean? But for, for many, like it's the thing that gets them through. Mm-hmm. So you have to, you have to quit cannabis for a week. Yeah, I've gotta quit cannabis for a week. Um, my diet's already pretty clean. I-- So I pretty much just cut back on the salt. Um, I had... Ayahuasca was on Friday, and I had Kambo on Wednesday. Okay. Yes.

So was this your first Kambo experience? This was my fourth Kambo experience at this point. Oh, okay. So we just kinda crossed over that- Yeah or bypassed that. Yeah. So how, how did you get introduced to Kambo? So how I got introduced to Kambo was this guy named Michael originally. Now, why I wanted to do Kambo, I woke up January 2026, had been on psych meds since prison, so since 2023. And I woke up and I'm like, "Why am I on this medication? This is not what I believe in." I'm like, "Okay, I, I can recognize that this has been a huge stepping stone for me, but I don't want this in my system anymore." I woke up and it had to be out of my system

I post on, I posted something on Facebook about, "Fuck Western medicine," or something like that. And I had this girl who I was in drug court with comment and give me Michael's name and was like, "Hey, here's how to help you get off of your psych meds. Maybe this will help you." I look at it and I'm like, "Yeah, I don't know about this." I go back to bed. So it's, it's the next day, and I wake up and again, and I'm like, I, these, I gotta get off these meds. It's something's in me saying I've gotta be off of them within the next week. And I call this Michael guy, I explain my situation, and he's like, "Okay." He's like, "I can't really tell you to get off of your meds." He was like... And I, I, I've weaned myself off of meds. I know how to do it. I've cold turkeyed off of medication. I know what's safe and I know what's not

safe. And by, and by the way, we're not recommending anybody- Yes to cold turkey that. Yes. But there's a lot of people that I know that are just desperate. Mm-hmm. And, you know, they know what they can take. Yeah. And that's, that's exactly where I was at, was at that desperation point. I, I think, I truly believe that they were a stepping stone and that I was at the point where I was not processing any- anymore because the medicine was masking and not allowing me to be in my body and feel

I had spoke to Michael. Michael was, pretty much told me to think on what I wanted to do. He said the Kambo could help me get off of the meds if I wanted to, and if that was something that I would be willing to do. But he told me that I... He had to look up the half-life for each of my medications and, um, pretty much told me that 72 hours they had to be... He couldn't serve me for 72 hours before the medication was out of my system.

So I really sat with it. I sat with it for a whole day, and you hear about people losing their minds coming off of medications and- I mean, it, it's very... You know, a lot of people when they quit psych meds cold turkey, it's why we never recommend it. Because unbeknownst to many, you know, therapists prescribe these things like they're Skittles. Mm-hmm. "Yeah, take this and you're gonna feel better, and if it stops working, then let me know and we'll mix up the cocktail a little bit and change it up." But what they do not realize is that in the form of a, you know, some type of antidepressant, whether it's an SSRI or an SNRI or, you know, the multitude of ones that it could be, or a benzodiazepine, is that these are some of the most addictive drugs on the planet. Mm-hmm. You know? Like when we think of addiction, we think of things like alcohol, heroin, meth. But the reason a lot

of people are on these things for their entire lives is because they can't get off of them. Mm-hmm. 'Cause as soon as they quit trying to take them, like... And the withdrawals from... There's, there's physical withdrawals, but the psychological withdrawals is a lot of times what will drive people to suicide. Mm-hmm. You know, three days off the medication, all suicidal ideations are coming in super strong. Mm-hmm. And benzos, I know people on benzos that literally have to shave slivers- Mm off of that pill for months, uh, trying to been, trying to wean off for years just because the withdrawals are so, you know, just intense and detrimental to the body and the psyche. Like these are... Anyways, I digress. So you got 72 hours. Y- well, I don't have 72 hours. He tells me that I've, that- Oh, once you're, once you're 72 hours off- Yes then, then you can sit with Kambo. Yes. So I I had already started before I was speaking to

him, I had started weaning myself off of what is called amoxapine. It's a non-stimulant HD- ADHD medication. So I'm on the third highest dose of that. Mm-hmm. So I'm already starting to wean myself off. Um, and I'm on trazodone for sleep, and I'm on- Trazodone. Is that, uh, is that an op- opiate or is that a SSRI? I... It might be an SSRI because they also do use it for depression, but I was using it for sleep. I always get trazodone and tramadol confused. Um, tramadol I think is m- possibly an opiate. Yeah. Uh, it's for pain. I do know that. Yeah. Okay. Now, I was also on lamotrigine, which is, it's, that is an SSRI, uh, mood stabilizer. I'm on the third highest doses of all these medications. Already started weaning off of that amoxapine. So I'm like, "Fuck it." I slowly

I think that with my, I did it within my body's limits because I had been on all these medications for two years. It's not like you haven't gone through a detox before. Yes. So I, I cut my medication in half right then and there that day. And then, uh, two days later, I cut that in half. Now, are you experiencing any type of withdrawals? Very, very minimal. Okay. And here's what I was also doing. I was-- I doubled my water intake. Mm-hmm. So I'm-- I was drinking close, roughly 80 to 90 ounces of water a day. Mm-hmm. So I'm drinking 180, I'm juicing, I'm going to the gym, and I'm, uh, I'm listening to my body, but I'm also ye- staying in the sauna, trying to just- Just trying to get your body clean. Yes. Now, I also started microdosing psilocybin. So I, I'm microdosing psilocybin while I'm getting off of them. So then I l- And what's that doing for you? So what that

personally was doing for me, the first two days that I started getting off of them, I was, I was a lot more agitated those first two days. I noticed when I started microdosing the psilocybin every other day, I had a little bit more capacity for life. I was... And I'm, I was starting to feel again. Mm-hmm. I had all of these emotions coming up that I realized were being masked from the medicine. I learned how to sit with my emotions within that week, in the moment, versus my body and my mind pushing them to the side because I had medications in me. Mm-hmm. So it was all a learning experience for me. It was like I was like a child learning to feel again. And the psilocybin, uh, it started, it really started helping me. I started noticing like an increase in my mood, an increase in my energy. And then three days off, um, when I started those three days of completely no medication,

I had ordered an ashwagandha supplement, saffron, St. John's wort, and 5-HTP Um, all of those besides the ashwagandha, um, help the serotonin inhibitors very similar to how an SSRI does. So you're really doing your own research on- Yes brain chemistry and how to get yourself there. Yeah. I understood that the, what the SSRI was doing was helping my serotonin in my brain. So I needed, if I was gonna come off of that as quick as I did, I needed something to mimic that. And I'm like, "Okay, I can go the natural route. I can do this for myself." Mm-hmm. So I started taking those, um, and we-- My, uh, the guy that was facilitating for me, Michael, ensured me that since they were natural, that they would be fine within that process. And then that Sunday, I had my first Kambo session. I met with Kambo for the first time, and it changed my life. It changed my life. I decided I was gonna do

an inoculation over three weeks, and that very first session I met with Kambo, I got my first test gates, and then I got my two more after that And it was interesting. I had a lot come up for me energetically the week prior, during the session, the week after. That programming that I had seen a glimpse of the year prior at that mushroom ceremony, Cambro brought back up and was like, "Hey, here's like all this programming. Like you've got your dad's voice in the back of your head all the time."

And I Kambo's been teaching me this lesson since day one. I have this go, go, go mentality, and I, I'm always overdoing it even when I think I'm doing the bare minimum. And I truly believe it's be- you know, I never got to be in my feminine, never got to be a child, so that masculine side is always overtaken. And in my first Kambo session, my-- I was laying on my left side and my right leg was, like, twitching, like un- uncontrollably. Like a somatic. Yeah. Like we see a lot of somatic releases like that. Yeah. And it was very, very interesting. And then- See that in Bufo a lot, too. Do you? Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. I'm excited for Bufo. So on my second round with Kambo that next week, um

So the way that my facilitator, facilila- facilitator described it to me was like, you meet Kambo, and then you've got that death round with Kambo. And I was having this weird thing where I could not go into the kitchen. Like, the kitchen was causing me severe amounts of PTSD. Like, I'm like, the, the... And I wasn't depressed. I'm like, "Those dishes can stay." I'd go into the kitchen and I'd start getting severe anxiety. I'd start shaking, almost hyperventilating. And in that week with that death round before Kambo, Kambo really showed me how my... Because my father was so OCD and everything had to be his way, that I was tying my self-worth to the, the kitchen, and the kitchen not being clean, and I kinda had my father's voice in the back of my head. Um, and a lot of other energetic stuff. It-- My first three rounds with Kambo were so spiritually energetic for me. My third round

was surrender, release. I was fully able to, like, start to understand on a generational level. I had already kind of understood that m- my mom was the way that she was because of her mom It was there without so much emotion, if that makes- The trauma was starting to make sense. Yeah, the trauma was making sense. Like, Kambo helped me make sense of the trauma. Which is huge- Mm-hmm when it comes to healing. Under- Mm-hmm well, I say understanding is the first stage of healing. You gotta know, un- even understand what it is you're looking at, you know? Because it, there's the action, th- there's the traumatic action, you know, that, that it kind of, wh- whatever shapes us, right? But then it's everything that led up to that traumatic action, you know. It's the, the creation of trauma. And that's where these medicines really shine because they take us beyond just the initial action, but in understanding how that even came to be over

generations, you know? So, wow. So Kambo's breaking things open. So we fast-forward, we have a Kambo session, and we're getting ready for the big one. Yes. The grandmother. The Kambo session went really well before ayahuasca and knocked off a lot energetically for me. It was One of my toughest Kambo sessions to this day and- Physically or- Physically, yes. The first three were a breeze for me physically for some reason. And then that fourth one right before ayahuasca tore me up. It was a lot energetically. I had just went through a rough time with my mom and her coming to visit, and I remember leaning over a bucket and my ex that I had told you about that

the 17 staples in the back of my head hap- had, had happened somehow. And I've looked him in the face. I've done so much counseling on that, but I'm over the bucket and Michael, the facilitator's like, "Hey," he's like, "You should probably drink some water." And I'm like looking at him like, "Fuck no, I don't wanna drink water." But I take a drink of the water anyways, and I puke and I say my ex's name. It just like came out and I'm like, I'm like, "Oh my God." I'm like, "Ugh." I'm like, "Oh, goodness." I couldn't believe it. I'm like, "Wow." That's still in there? Yeah. And then I go to my first ayahuasca ceremony, and I was so excited. I had no idea what was gonna happen, but I'm just going in there keeping an open mind and not expecting anything because I've heard stories, people expecting too much and then nothing happens. So I'm just keeping an open mind. And my very first

night was, it was light In a sense. I was getting slapped in the face a lot by all my own bullshit I like to think of myself as a very self-aware bullshit, but ayahuasca can show you your shit in another, in another way, and that's- In a, in a, in another awareness of self-awareness. Yes. And that's exactly what she did for me. So I sat with a lot of, a lot of uncomfortable feelings, but it was all my own shit. So I'm like, "Okay," like, "I can do this. This is my shit. It's absolutely is what it is." I didn't purge. That first night was super light, and I'm like, "Okay," like, "I can do this," you know? This ain't so bad. Yeah.

The second night rolls around, and we get warned, "This is the strong batch." I've already decided I'm taking two cups tonight, and I'm-- I already took a medium- As Caitlin does. Yes. I'd already decided I can do the medium. And, uh, so I take my first cup, and it was by far the most beautiful experience on any sort of medicine I have ever had. I close my eyes, and I, like, see this skeleton, and it's going through all these clouds, and then it just lands in a grave. And I'm like, "Oh," like, "are you showing me what it's like to be dead, ayahuasca?" And ayahuasca's like, "No," like, "I'm not showing you what it's like to be dead." And I'm like, "Okay," you know? Like, "What is this?" And then all of a sudden, my best friend who committed suicide, Olivia Pritzl, she's hanging, and she... That's how she committed suicide, was hanging. But I'm in her body, so I'm in her body and I'm

like- You're experiencing the hanging. Yes, I'm experiencing the hanging, and she looks very similar to the exorcism doll that turns her head. Mm-hmm. That's kinda what she's looking like, and it's in her room in her house. And I'm like, I'm, like, panicking, like, while I'm in her body, and then all of a sudden I'm out of her body and she's hanging there. And I look at her and I'm like, "Olivia," like, "what can I do for you?" And she's like, "Live." She's like, "You can live." Mm. Tells me I can live, and I like- Chills. Yeah. I, like, I lose it at this point. I've gotta get up and I, like, I, like, run outside, right? And I'm, like, in the grass, and I have been really comfortable with death my whole life. I'm a weirdo. I'll, like, sit and fantasize my own death, and not in the aspect of, like, I'm suicidal, but you know, like- But just the non-existence- Yeah of you. Yes.

Yeah, you know what I mean? Like... And I was able to release a lot of trauma that I had around grief, and I realized that I don't grieve people. Like, I don't grieve them because I'm so comfortable and so familiar with death. So I grieved and I grieved and I cried and I felt so good. And they came outside and they were playing music for me while I was grieving, and I was loving it. And I went back inside, and they called for second cups. Okay. And I was the only one out of all 17 people, and the smallest, that went back up for that second cup, and medium too. And I got up there, something was like, "No, you need to do a small." And he poured the medium, and something in me was like, "You need to tell him that you just want a small." But I was like, "Fuck it." And I take the medium, and I truly believe it happened for

a reason. And I, I go and I lay back down, and I'm on my mat. And I remember thinking, like the medicine started hitting me, and I'm feeling really euphoric in my body. And I'm like, "Yeah, I don't puke on ayahuasca." That's what I'm thinking. And next thing I know, I've got my bucket in between my leg, and I don't even know how it got there. And I'm just like in my bucket just bleh, bleh. Like I can see the energy coming off of my puke, and I'm like, "Holy shit." And they're playing music. They've got the flute, the drums, all sorts of stuff. They're singing, and I'm like, "This is overwhelming." I'm like, "I gotta get the fuck out of here."

I go out and I like throw myself on the deck, and I've got a bucket, and I'm just puking, puking, puking. And I'll never forget- This was, and it was not because of anything that anyone else was doing. It-- All the times that I had felt unsafe in my body and just not honored what my body was telling me, and then all the times I wasn't able to do something for myself when I was unsafe, such as a child, all of that unsafeness was front and center. So that was the most unsafe I had ever felt in my entire life. I thought they were gonna roast me over the fire. Um- Th- this is what your brain's starting to tell you in ayahuasca. Yeah, that they're gonna s- they're getting a fire ready and they're roasting me over it. They're sacrificing me. The ol'- the ol'- the ol' Caitlin roast. So I'm, like, watching them all, like, preparing the fire for my death. And, um,

everyone, like, everyone's trying to help me. So at this point I've, I've done caused a ruckus. There's very few people that are not wondering what's going on with me. So are you starting to act out? Are you- Yeah. I, I, I'm past the point of, like, acting out. Inconsolable. You're freaking out. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm, I'm pretty much at that point. They've got me in the grass. Um, I thought that the dogs were gonna eat me. Um, they're trying to, like, get me to move my body to try to get some of the energy out, and I'm... Any advice that anyone's giving me, I'm not having none of it. N- absolutely not. It's an interesting thing. When we're in those states- Mm-hmm once we tip, it's, I mean, a very, very incredibly skilled facilitator or ayahuasquero or shaman, whatever you wanna call them, can maybe move you out of that. Mm-hmm. But it's not something that comes easy. It was not easy. I think, uh,

they said I wasn't the worst, but I think- I definitely gave them a run for their money. Um, Will started, he... I've, I've got the bucket and I'm throwing up, and I kept telling him, like, "I need salt. I need salt." And I, I think my body, I don't think my body was in immediate harm, but I think it, it could've easily been because I had done that kambo and I had- Mm-hmm had quite a bit of a purge. But Will kept a great eye on me to make sure that I was okay, and I kept telling Will, I'm like, "I don't wanna go back to prison. I don't wanna go back to prison." And Will was like, "Well, what are you so worried about going back to prison for?" There was even a point where I started walking off of the property. Thankfully, it, it was gated. I didn't even make it close to the gate. Will kept talking me off of the edge.

He finally got me to drink some coconut water and brought me back down. Now, the biggest thing that I got out of that is that I clearly needed to work on my root chakra- for will, which I've been doing. Now, um, that safeness starts within my body, uh, that I have to feel safe and grounded within my body, and sometimes that can be an everyday thing, especially when the-- especially with the trauma that I have been through. Um, so that's been a big thing that I have been implementing in, is feeling grounded and safe within my body and speaking up. Ayahuasca taught me how to speak up. I've always been

okay at it, but it was, I was like a tea kettle. I would wait, I would wait, I would wait, I would wait, and then I'd just blow up, or I would never say anything at all. And ayahuasca showed me how to speak up for myself and to do it as soon as something comes forth that makes me feel uncomfortable, so I don't build resentment, so I don't hold that in my body And then my... I bounced back pretty quick. I did. They were highly impressed. They were like, "Wow, that was, that was pretty quick," you know? Um, and then the, the third night was very, very, very light. The third night I was able to take that lesson from that second night because I was really uncomfortable the third night, but it wasn't nothing like the second. It was just enough to where I could remind myself that I am safe and I'm grounded within my body and find that sense of safety within

myself You've come a long way. I'm trying here. Yeah. So how long ago was that? That was in June. Oh, wow. From childhood to June. Man. How are you feeling? I am feeling really proud of myself. I have put in a lot of work. I don't even recognize myself some days. So, it's a very bittersweet thing. Mm-hmm. I'm letting go of a lot of old identities and stepping into a lot of new. I'm learning to embrace the unknown, which is... I've been doing it my whole life, so you think it'd be easy now, but it's not. I don't know if it ever gets fucking easier. We just learn how to cope better. Mm-hmm. So, and now, now you're approaching a life of service. Mm-hmm. What are you doing?

Right now, I own a business. I teach yoga. I try to do a lot of unconventional yoga events outside. I'm very passionate about somatic movement, bringing people home to their body, helping regulate the nervous system. So I love yoga. I also am a massage therapist. I'm licensed in Illinois and in Missouri. I like to incorporate sound therapy into that, and Reiki as well. I am in a herbal school right now, so I'm learning more about herbs, looking to bring more of that into my practice to help people naturally, to help myself naturally. And I am a soon-to-be Kambo practitioner. Now you're gonna be serving Kambo. Yes. Oh. You know, and it's just what a, man, what a well-rounded practice. Mm-hmm. Like, you're gonna hit, hit 'em with a little bit of everything. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's all the things that have worked for you. They are, and I've always looked for something that I would be passionate and have that drive to do, and

it is helping people. And, uh, everything that I've listed that's within my business is all something, is, is everything that has changed my life more than once. Mm-hmm. So we're gonna wrap it up soon. You know, stories like yours I love because it, it's an underdog story. Mm-hmm. And it's truest nature, you know? And that's, that's the stories of a lot of people that I talk to or even that come through the school or that I get to meet, you know? It's like we say the, the path to how we got here was just paved on trauma and

Just atrocity, tragedy, you know? But to be able to take that, because the, the, the very reality of it is, is most people that whose life starts out like yours doesn't have a happy ending. And that's the truth. Mm-hmm. That's, that's the reality of it, unfortunately. And then you have the oddball that does something different, that can, that can go through that trauma and the neglect and having to grow up so fast and go to prison and, and then take all that pain and transform it. You know, it's like this is the, this is the other thing, is to take that pain. You're not transforming it into... A lot of people don't come here and be like, "Yeah, my goal is just to become the richest woman in Babylon, to create all this wealth and these businesses." It's like, no, you took that pain and transform it into a path of service that you can help others that have either gone down a similar path

or maybe to help them avoid going down the same one. That's beautiful. Yeah. Super beautiful. So if there was somebody else out there, young person starting to make the same mistakes that you did- What would you tell them? I would tell them never to give up and never to stop believing in themselves because there's always hope and to find support to find some sort of support There's always beauty in the discomfort and to just keep hanging on. My biggest thing would be to not stop believing in yourself

I never have. Thank God. Thanks for being here, Caitlin. Well, uh, if anybody would like to reach out to you, you know, the things that you offer, we'll put your contact info in the show notes. All right. Love you, sister. Love you, Jason. Thank you for having me.