The Story Behind Tribal Detox | Childhood Trauma, Complex PTSD & Kambo

This episode of Beyond the Ceremony is brought to you by Tribal Detox. At Tribal Detox, we don't just teach people how to serve kambo. We teach them how to hold space professionally, ethically, and safely. There are a lot of places teaching medicine work now. What makes Tribal Detox different is that we've never tried to build the guru culture around this work. We believe this medicine deserves deep respect, guided by spirit, but grounded in safety, science, humility, and real-world experience. Our trainings are immersive. You're not just sitting in a classroom memorizing protocols. You're stepping into a community of practitioners from all walks of life who genuinely care about integrity in this space. From contraindications and safety protocols to understanding the peptides found within kambo and learning how to properly support people physically, mentally, and emotionally through the experience. This is more than a school. It's an experience that stays with people long after the training ends. If you felt called toward this work or you're looking

for a professional training rooted in both respect for tradition and modern safety standards, you can learn more at tribaldetox.com. Now let's get back to the episode. We're back. On today's episode of the podcast, we're going to be getting into my story. Yeah, so the first few episodes of the podcast, we had other people on, as well as I went into a little bit more in depth about my story. But today we're gonna go into a little bit more in depth about Jason's story. A lot of our students and, you know, people that have met Jason have essentially heard the CliffsNotes of his story, and I'm sure a lot of the students that we've taught will remember the CliffsNotes of his story start off

Basically from my mid-20s to my mid-30s, I was a psychological mess And that's essentially how you discovered the medicines, like a lot of us do. Um, and, you know, part of your story, you tell them that ayahuasca is what you started with, and ayahuasca helped you understand why you were having some of the issues you were having, but you hadn't really got into it in depth at that point. Yeah, we, you know... I, you know, when I talk about how I was just psychologically unstable, I mainly just talk about the symptoms I was experiencing as far as, you know, suicidal ideations, chronic nightmares, uh, insomnia, intrusive thoughts, depression, anxiety, but never really got into what caused it. And I think because people know I'm a vet, they think, uh, a lot of it's veteran related, but it actually began much earlier in life. You know, and this one's a vulnerable one because, uh, this is a part of my story that I haven't

really told, um, you know, just because of family relationships, not wanting to hurt people or things like that. But I think, you know, a big part of this journey, especially with the roles that we've kind of landed in, is to share these experiences so that other people know that they're not alone in maybe the same experiences, and how these medicines can really pull somebody from just a, an extreme darkness to a better place. Yeah. And a lot of... I mean, you didn't necessarily realize it when we had first met, but just like I'm sure a lot of people know this, but in order for you to un- unpack a lot of the things that you were struggling with, it took the mirror of a relationship and, you know, awakened relationship, for lack of a better term, in order for you to understand everything that you were actually suffering with. And so that's kind of this relationship was a big part of unpacking it all for

you. Yeah. Really having that mirror just to help me, because even years into the healing journey, still struggling with things that were hard to understand or hard to understand why, you know. Because a lot of people get into these medicines with the assumption of, "I'll take the medicine and then I'll be cured." But that's not really how it works. You know, the medicines shine a light on the things that you need to work on, but they don't do the work for you. Yeah. And nothing forces you to do the work as much as a mirror reflecting back to you what you have to work on, essentially. But yeah, let's get into it. So, you know, you always tell people, again, the cliff notes from your mid-20s to your mid-30s, you were a psychological mess, and you found the medicines and they helped you greatly. And again, you didn't really start fully unpacking it until this, you know, the mirror of this relationship was in front

of you. But can you go into part of the reason why you were, you would say that you were a psychological mess? Just like you said, people, a lot of people think it was from military service, which of course there was some from the military, but a lot of it started much earlier than that. Yeah. So, you know, like most people, it-- my struggles began in childhood at a very young age. And, um, you know, I, I guess it's really begins with my earliest memory. And the earliest memory that I have is that of being sexually assaulted

Yeah, this, this will be a tough one Was being sexually assaulted, um, around the age of six by a neighbor, my next door neighbor. And- What age were you when that happened? About six. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Six years old. And, um, I don't really remember much before that, and I don't really remember the next few years after that until about, I guess probably about eight or nine years old. And I think the reason that I, that, that specific timeframe comes to mind is because that's when, uh, the cracks really started to show.

You know, and I'd, I'd started to develop, um, some nervous system issues. And, you know, these tics, like these little head jerks or clicking of my jaw, or I would make like my... I had the sensation to make my eyes really wide, you know? It, it... Or, uh, you know, I'd make sounds. And it was... I didn't know why I was having, why, why these things were happening. Obviously, at that age, it's very uncomfortable because other kids can be cruel. You know and, um, And it was just very, it was very hard to deal with. And my parents began to notice it, you know, and obviously it was uncomfortable for them. And, um, you know, we just wanted to figure out what was going. At that time, I didn't think that they knew about the sexual assault. That was something I felt like I carried alone. And, uh, you know, this kinda plays into it later. But to try to figure out what was happening,

they, they sent me-- They-- I remember them took me to a neurologist, and the neurologist would, you know, poke and prod with these needles, um, you know, and all over my body, trying to see how I'd react, trying to see if there's, uh, any type of nerve reaction or nerve numbness or anything like that. And I remember, I... It was like one or two days of testing we did. And at the end of it, I remember sitting in that office with them, you know, talking to my parents. Said they couldn't find anything, you know, that stood out, and then they just gave me a diagnosis of having mild Tourette's syndrome, whi-which is a very scary kinda diagnosis because it, it was made to sound like this is just a condition that you have. It's rare, and it's something that you happen to get, and it's something that you're just going to have to learn to live with. Would you say the sexual assault that you

experienced was part of the reason why you were having the tics, or, or is there something more that was causing it? Yeah. So man, it's harder than I thought it was gonna be. So you know, childhood was hard. My parents got married at a very young age and, uh, you know, and my dad had grown up in a tough environment. His father was, was very tough on him and his brothers. I would call it, uh, an abusive childhood that he was raised in. And, you know, these things, it's...

A lot-- These tendencies get passed from generation to generation. And the way my dad was raised, he had learned to be a very hard father, a hard man And uh It's You know, it, it's hard to talk about abuse because when you're that young, you don't recognize it as being abuse. It's just the way things are, you know? And, you know, I wouldn't say they were physically abusive. I mean, but I grew up in the '80s, so I mean, everybody could hit you back then. I mean, even your teachers could hit you with a weapon, a paddle, and, you know, and the belt was a common tool used in our household for disciplinary measures. But even the, you know, getting spanked or getting whipped with the belt was obviously not fun, but

You know, worse than that, it's the, the scary part is seeing the anger and the rage behind the eyes of those who are hitting you You know, because as a child You know, as a child, your parents are supposed to be your sense of safety and You know, they're the people you run to when you're scared. But when that only person you have to run to is also the same person that can just demonstrate this intense emotional anger, you know. And, uh, With the screaming and the yelling and the hitting with the belt and, you know, sometimes the name-calling and,

and, you know, and, and sometimes you almost wish that the beatings would be more obvious. You know, that's the thing with just getting whipped on your hind end or your back or whatever is that's, that's hidden underneath clothes. And there's, there's nobody to talk to about it 'cause you think that's just normal. And, uh But, but what people don't understand is abuse is way deeper than just physical You know, it's the the emotional and the verbal abuse doesn't leave bruises so when you go to church and you know, you're, you're around other people, other adults, and they just talk about how beautiful your family is and how well-mannered us boys are and our parents did such a good job raising us, it just creates a lot of confusion

You know, and um And the other thing is, you know, even though my dad was the disciplinarian And a pretty scary one My mother was often silent, you know, when these things would happen. And it was almost... I spent years trying to unpack this and, and trying to understand it, even the confus-confusing relationship that I've had with my parents, even through my adult years. You know, but it's almost like my mom would allow it to happen so she could be the good parent to come to when dad was gone. However, even if we, you know, began to act out of line or whatever,

her, her favorite phrase to use to get us to, you know, behave is, "I'm going to tell your father." So she knew that we were terrified of my father, and she would use that to make us behave. But then, you know, when we would have to suffer the wrath of my dad She would make herself the one to run to. So, so it's just a very confusing childhood. There was no sense of safety. And because of this, my n- it, it was part of why my nervous system got so dysregulated, you know? And these tics

and everything, it just would get worse and worse and worse. My parents didn't know what to do with it. And I remember they sent me to hypnotherapy to try to hypnotize it out of me. That didn't work. And then I would just get disciplined or punished for it. And, you know, I remember a time we were at an amusement park, Six Flags Over Texas, and my brother and I were waiting in line at this, uh, you know, for this ride. I remember it. It was in that bobsled ride.

You know, and we were gonna go ride it by myself, ourselves. My parents were outside the line just kinda watching us go in. And I just, I just remember it was a fun family day. I was having so much fun and, you know, we got through the line, and we went on the ride, and we came back so happy. And, uh, as soon as we got back to my parents, my dad goes, "You owe me 70 push-ups." You know, and it's not But why, why did he say you owed him 70 push-ups? You know, it sounds like a stupid thing to get emotional over right now, but, you know, my dad was a drill sergeant in the Army, and he would use a lot of, you know, dis- boot camp disciplinary measures on his very young boys, you know, which granted was, I think, a lot better than, you know, getting beat with a belt or, or something like that. But it, but it was

the fact, the punishment he said, he goes, "I counted you seven times that you ticced when you were in that line." And he goes, "You owe me 10 push-ups for each one." And push-ups aren't a big deal. We did lots of push-ups. But it was having such a fun family day, and then to be punished for something that I couldn't control because my nervous system was just so fucked up. And, you know, as I got older, it just got worse and worse, and, you know, I got bullied

Got bullied at school and, and I remember I was in the eighth grade and it had gotten so bad And things were just so chaotic in the house, and my nervous system was so wrecked that I was like, "I, I ca-- I have to get out." And it's like I, I ran away for like five hours. I remember I went to the pawn shop and bought this... I was so intent on just not coming back to the house. And, you know, my little eighth grade brain didn't understand the impracticality of that. And I went to this pawn shop and I bought a pocket knife.

And I was like, "I'm just gonna live under bridges in the back of alleys if I have to, just not to go home." And I remember I s- when I was on my bicycle and went down this alley, and I was propped up against this dumpster, and I had my knife stuck in this piece of plywood on the ground, and some person came out to dump the trash. And I was just kinda... I mean, it was weird for them. A little eighth grade boy out there just hanging out by the dumpster. They asked if I was okay. I said, "Yeah." And then I remember maybe about 20 minutes later, a police officer showed up. And it scared me 'cause I thought I was in trouble. And he started asking me, "Are you okay? Is everything

okay at home?" You know, "Are your parents hitting you or anything like that?" And I mean, outside of like a belt or a whippings, I, you know, they... It's like n-not like they hit us in the face or anything. So I told him, no, everything was fine. You know, I just thought this was normal. You know, and then it started to get dark, and I realized that I had to go home, which was terrifying. And, um, and I remember I was getting ready to pull out of one of the streets, and I saw my dad's truck drive by, and I knew he'd been out looking for me.

And I was just getting ready to brace for impact when I got home. When I got home, my mom was sitting on the porch, you know, and I just started crying, and I couldn't explain why I did it or... And my dad pulled up in the driveway, and I was sitting on the porch with my back against this, you know, brick wall. And my dad walks up, and the only thing he said to me, he says, "You get your ass inside before I-" Before I start bashing your head into this brick wall

And I knew I just, I had no place to go You know, and yeah. And, and when you realize there's just no place to go When you don't feel safe Yeah, you just kinda submit to the chaos. You know, there's, there's really nothing else you can do, especially at that age You know, and, and high school was kind of a blur. I had a couple of friends and, um And I started to make... Y- you know, we went to church every Sunday. We, we grew up in what looked like a good home. We had a nice house on the lake. You know, and everybody always tells you, "You got such good parents. You have such a good childhood," and all these things.

And it didn't feel like that to me, and I started to act out, started to wear baggy clothes, and started to drink on the weekends with my, with my friends. Started to smoke pot around the 10th grade. You had a little earring too? Yeah. I got, I got earrings at 16 years old back, you know, that was back in the early '90s, before it really got cool, I guess. And, um, you know, and I, I was just... I'd crashed a couple of cars. I'd... I was just getting into bad things. But still show up to church on Sunday, and still go to Sunday school, still pray

for me to feel normal, for me not to twitch, for me to The, the other thing is I, uh, I started to develop intrusive thoughts at a very young age. Explain what an intrusive thought is for the listeners that don't know what that is. So an intrusive thought is, is, it's, um, it's a pretty common symptom of complex PTSD. And it's, you know, it's your, your system kinda gets into this, this, uh, constant state of fight or flight. You're just ready to brace for impact at all times, right? And, you know, intrusive thoughts, they call them the stealer of joys because it's like this miswiring in the brain that is meant to protect you, but it, it just... It, it makes, uh... It almost makes it unbearable to be in your own psyche. 'Cause essentially, it's almost like the intrusive thought is going to have you imagine the most

Awful thing imaginable as to try to get you not to do it or not to put yourself in that situation, right? It's almost like a defense mechanism? Almost like a defense mechanism. For example, if we're going to drive through a mountain pass, before we even go on the drive, I will start thinking about our car driving off the side of the mountain and ending up in a fiery crash, killing all of us. And that's like the brain going, "This can happen. Make sure, make sure it doesn't." But it, it... And it's almost...

You know, I tell people it's, it's so vivid. It's almost like a memory that didn't happen, right? And it's like, you know, if I ask somebody to think of what they had for breakfast and explain to me how they cooked it, they can reach back into that memory and explain it, right? Without having to think about it. And it's kind of the same. It's almost like this horrible memory that was there that, uh, uh, you know, it's just y- you never had an ability to trust joy, to trust happiness, because your brain's telling this could go off the rails at any moment. And the intrusive i thought, thoughts that I had, uh, you know, I'm always clear or make a point to say that they're not compulsions. They're just like these horrible th- imagery in your brain. And mine was usually of me doing s- something very violent to somebody that I loved, even from a very young age, or, or doing something violent to

myself in front of somebody that I loved. And I think that had to do with, you know, just no sense of safety. The aggression that I felt was acted out upon me, my brain saying, "You could very well do that to somebody else, so you need to keep yourself in check." And I remember I was probably I was probably about nine years old and, uh, th-these intrusive thoughts began to become so vivid, they began to scare me and I remember I went to my dad so scared about ten o'clock at night. We'd already been in bed for a couple of hours, and I told him that I could not stop thinking about putting a pillow

over my brother's face and smothering him And what did he say to you? He said, uh He said to shut up and, and quit talking about these things because they're not real And that was the last time I did Wasn't there another instance where you had gone to your dad? I don't know, I don't know if you were a kid, but you, um, you had like a knife or something. Like describe that memory. Was that when you were a kid? Yeah, that's probably pretty soon after sexual assault. He said he just woke up one day and I was standing beside his knife. I was standing beside his bed holding a knife, telling him that I couldn't sleep.

Yeah. I, I don't remember that, but he just told me he took the knife and then put me back to bed. And I remember you telling me at one point you had your dad... I don't know if-- I think it was when you were older, maybe late adolescence, where you had talked about the intrusive thoughts, and he had shared that that was something that he experienced as well. Yeah. You know, I remember when I was really at the height of my suicidal ideations. So this was when you were an adult? Yeah, this was when I was an adult. And, um, I had just divorced my wife out of nowhere. She, she, she didn't understand. But I was so messed up in my head, and I thought I was gonna hurt myself or somebody else. And I remember talking to my dad about this.

And, uh, uh, and I said, "You'll just, you'll never understand," wh- 'cause I couldn't talk about the intrusive thoughts. They f- they felt so scary and terrifying. I just didn't want people to think I was a monster. And I told him he wouldn't understand, he couldn't understand. And then he said, "Try me." Mm, so I told him, and he said, "This is something I deal with also." And, uh, I, I don't wanna g- I don't wanna say what he said after that, but it, it just made me realize.

But even at that point, I thought, "Okay, this is something that was passed down to me genetically. Maybe this is just the Fellows gene," you know? And at that point, you didn't really understand why you were having all these psychological problems? I didn't. I, I thought maybe from the sexual assault when I was young. And I remember telling my dad that, a- and he quoted a voi- uh, he, he quoted a verse from the Bible. I, I, I grew up Southern Baptist. Parents were very religious. So when you were an adult, you told them about the sexual assault that happened to you because you thought only you knew about it? Yeah. And then I remember my mom had said, "No, we, we knew about that," which floored me, 'cause not once did they ever talk to me about it. And I realized later that's what the hypnotherapy was for, just to try to get me to forget it. But, uh, it's just something I thought

I had carried alone my entire life. And, and I, and I felt like it was still having some type of impact on me. I just couldn't figure out why I was so psychologically damaged, and I was trying to talk to my dad about this, and he quoted a verse from the Bible. I, I can't remember exactly how the verse goes, but it says, you know, something, "When I was a child, I acted in childish ways, and when I became a man, it was time to put down childish things." And he said that in relation to you telling him about the sexual assault? Yeah. And what did your mom say about it? Nothing

So You know, by the time I, uh, graduated high school, I, I, I was still just going through the motions. I was a mess. I, I did okay in school, you know, A, B student. And, uh, you know, my parents were pushing me either going to the military or going to college. You know, not, not about pursuing any type of specific career or passion or anything like that. So almost like they just needed to get me into something that they didn't have to worry about me. So I thought I'd go to school for a year. I had no idea what I wanted to go to school for, you know, and I did one year of college, and I just, I did not have the capacity to study, to retain information, you know. And, uh, and so I decided to go into the military,

and I joined the United States Coast Guard. And I did six years in the military, and the military is... It was really good for me for the first few years. And, uh, you know, it gave me structure, it gave me discipline, it gave me camaraderie, ship. I met a lot of great friends. But I also, I was starting to have really bad anger problems. Like my temper was-- My, my fuse was just so short, you know? There was no fuse. There was no fuse. There was no fuse. And, uh-

You know, and this was starting to have an impact on me, and it was a long time since... I, I don't... You know, the military was so long ago, 20 years ago, so I don't, I don't remember a whole lot, you know, details and specifics. But, you know, I'd met my previous wife while I was there, and she ended up getting out, and when she got out, I went, ended up, you know, being deployed. Uh, we went down to Antarctica, and it was about a six-month deployment. And while I was... And this was

I guess early two thousands so there, there was no really way to communicate. You know, I think we could send an email like once a week or something like that. You know, it's way before smartphones and, you know, the internet abilities that we have now and I'd got an email with her telling me that she'd been raped by an ex-boyfriend And, and I was, uh, I didn't have the opportunity to email back for like another week. 'Cause you were in Antarctica? Mm-hmm. And it was at that moment that I realized I did not have the emotional

Capacity Capacity or intelligence to even handle something like that. I, I, I couldn't think, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat. And I, I went to the people above me in my chain of command and said, "I have got to get back home." 'Cause I remember I got another... She, she had told me she was feeling suicidal, and without the ability to communicate, I, I was just, I was wrecked. I couldn't perform my job. But because we weren't married, they weren't gonna let me go, and I was self-imploding. And- And it's hard in the military 'cause you can't just get out of the military and then I made one of the most regretful decisions that I've ever made, that I still to this day have a hard time sitting with.

I knew the Coast Guard had a zero tolerance drug policy, and if I admitted to drug use, they would immediately Discharged me from the military and that's what I did Out of an act of desperation I admitted to drug use and just like I knew they would, they kicked me off the ship, took a C-130 from New Zealand or from Antarctica to N- to New Zealand, then from New Zealand to Seattle, uh, being escorted by another person so that they could begin my discharge. And I knew this was going to ruin any...

And I was an E5, you know, as petty officer second class in the, in the Coast Guard. Same as the kind of ranking as, uh, the Navy. It'd been like a sergeant in the Army, and I was good. I was stellar. Got good rewa- you know, rewards, marks, and- So what did they give you le- leaving the military? I always get confused on the wording, on the discharge. I ended up getting a general discharge under dishonorable conditions. So it wasn't a dishonorable discharge. Yeah. But it was like the next worst thing. Yeah, I know. This is something I've always told you. I know you have a lot of shame around, you know, you don't wanna leave the military under those conditions. However, it... I think it speaks a lot to the heart you have for the people that you care about, that you were willing to go through that for one of your loved ones. That's, that says a lot, too, even though you don't

like the way it looks on paper. I mean, it's a double-edged sword, you know, because yes, y- you're doing this for somebody else, but then you're also leaving the brotherhood. You're betraying, uh, your comrades, you know? Well, and just how it looks to the outside world. No matter how it looks. Like, even though you were, you were doing what you knew was right in your heart, it's hard to explain that decision to other people. Yeah. And then it just... So I ended up in Seattle, and they took me to, uh, the Seattle-Tacoma Army base. And I, I remember we got there about midnight, and I went back in this little office. They had this nurse back there, and they just started asking me all these questions, you know. Because with the Coast Guard before this kind of the funny, but I guess cool thing, before they kick you out, they send you to a rehab if it's drug-related. But you weren't in the rehab at

that time. It felt like you were in a, like a psych ward, right? Well, the other thing, I didn't need a rehab 'cause I wasn't actually addicted to drugs. I had to p- play out this lie, right? And, uh, so I'm, I'm talking to this person. They're asking me these questions and whatnot, and asking me if I have suicidal tendencies and whatnot. And I said, you know... And at that time, I, I was having suicidal ideations. I just felt like this person cared, and I was just talking to them. And they go, "All right, well, you ready to go?" And I said, "Like right now? Y'all can... I thought I had to wait a couple of weeks for this to, to get in." They're like, "No, no, it's just right upstairs." I said, "Well, yeah, I guess. Let's go." He goes, "One moment." So I waited a few moments, and then, uh, he left, and then he came back in. The door opened, and he

pushed in a wheelchair, and he goes, uh, "I gotta have you jump in the wheelchair." I was like, "Um, this is weird. I don't need a wheelchair. I'm perfectly fine to walk." He goes, "It's just policy." So I got in the wheelchair. He rolled me down the hall into this elevator, and this elevator went up. I think it was, like, the fourth floor And there's this long corridor with these big steel doors with these bars over the window, and he was rolling me to- towards those doors. And it just, it- Didn't feel good it didn't feel good. Like, you could tell you weren't in the place that you- Yeah would ever needed to be. So he rolled me into this thing, you know, and through the doors, and there's this nurse at the desk and said, "All right, we got it from here." And then that other nurse left, and they took me to this other room, and they started asking me all these weird

questions. And, um, e- even, like, weird sexual questions about sodomy and things like that. I know. It's funny. A- anytime you've told me this story, it reminds me of the same when I went into the detox. Steel doors, bars on the window, and yeah, they... It is... Yeah, they were asking me weird sexual questions, and I was like, "What in the world does this have to do with detoxing?" And that's, and that's exactly what I told them. I'm like, "I don't understand what these questions have to do with drug rehab." And he stopped me. You know, he looked from his paper and looked up at me and said, "Drug rehab?"

I said, "Yeah, that's, that's where I was supposed to go, is drug rehab." He goes, "This is the psych ward." And I said- I said, "Oh." I said, "Well, get the other guy up here. Y'all got me in the wrong place. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm not supposed to be here." He goes, "Oh, the paperwork says, uh, you know, says some things about suicide and, and whatnot, and to, uh..." You know, I was like, "No, no, no." I, I, I said, "Yeah, but I'm not... I, I don't need to be in the psych ward, you know?" And he's like, "Well, it's a misunderstanding. We'll call some people tomorrow, and, and we'll get it all cleared up." He goes, "But we're gonna have to go through the motions for now." So how long were you there for? I was in there for a week. Okay. And it, it was, it was... You know, they took my clothes, and they took my shoes, you know, 'cause you

can't have shoestrings. Um, and I was given a hospital gown as my attire, which I also thought was very weird. And, uh- Did it feel kind of dehumanizing a little bit? It felt dehumanizing. I could still wear pants underneath it, I think, but it was like these pa- pajama pants they give you. And, um, you know, like you don't even have mirrors that you can shave in. They expect you to keep up your grooming standards, you know, military grooming standards. So they had like this stainless steel napkin holder thing that you used for a mirror and they give you like a single blade razor and watch you shave and then you'd have to give it back to them. And I even remember when I was having that meeting with that guy telling him I don't belong here. And he's like, well, you know, we'll get that cleared up. He goes, there are people here suffering from severe mental instabilities because this was 2000 and, uh

I guess two thou... I think it was 2003, right at the height of the, you know, the war that was going on. So there were a lot of, you know, guys coming in suffering from a lot of problems. But I remember he goes, "There's some people suffering from some severe mental instabilities, but don't worry, we're not gonna let any of them hurt you." I was like, "What?" Like, "Where, where am I?" You know? And I remember it was so humiliating. I smoked cigarettes at that time, and there was no place to smoke attached to the, uh, the psych ward. So they called it the pajama party, where they would get all the smokers and then under supervision march you out of the psych ward through the Army base, people looking at you, some people snickering, laughing, making jokes, and walked you outside to the smoking area, smoke your cigarettes. And I remember I was just, every day, if I wasn't... I didn't feel like I

was going... I didn't feel like I was crazy when I went in. I felt like I was going to be that way by the time I got out. And they would try to do these, these little things. Uh, it, it, it almost seemed- Like group therapy? it almost seemed like Sunday d- Sunday school g- uh, ch... W- what's that summer thing they do at the church for the kids? Oh, vacation Bible school. Vacation Bible school. Because you go in the room, they have all, like, these arts and crafts and be like, "All right, today, do you wanna make a belt? Do you wanna build a birdhouse? Do you wanna..." I was like, "What the fuck are we doing?" Like, "We're a military, active military personnel, and you're asking us if we wanna build a birdhouse?" You know what I mean? And I remember I was getting so angry, and they're like, "Jason, you need to try to keep a good attitude," you know, and, and

all these other things. And I was like, "I have got to get out of here." And I, I was talking to them every day trying to get myself out of there. Well, I'm sure it was so hard to, 'cause you wanted to get home to your wife. Yeah, I know. And then you're spending a week or so in this- Or she was my girlfriend at the time. Oh. But yeah. And, um, I remember they told me, it's like, "All right, this afternoon..." This is, like, seven days into it. "This afternoon you're going to sit down with the, uh, the counselor, and you're gonna kinda do one little, uh,

te..." They didn't use the word test. I can't remember what they called it. But just to see if you are good to go, right? So I went into this office, and the doctor, and he had a little nursing assistant in there with her little notepad and her little pen, writing everything down that I was saying. And, uh, they're asking me all these questions. Man, I was just banging on my... boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I'm like, "I'll be out of here in no time." And then he goes, "All right, one more question." I said, "What do you got?" He goes, "I g- I want you to do..." He goes, "I want you to count backwards from 100." I said, "No problem. 100, 99, 98." He goes, "No, no, no. Stop." He goes, "I want you to count back from 100 by sevens." Okay. Um, 93

80, 85, 70. What the fuck is this? You want me to count backwards by seven? I just remember I lost it. I lost it because it's like, what is, is... It felt like a gotcha question. You know what I mean? And then the little nursing assistant went to s- writing down in her pad. I was like, "Oh, what are you writing down over there?" You know? And I just completely just lost it. And, um, you know, I remember leaving there so, just so upset, but luckily somebody had called. I, I don't know what happened, but I ended up getting to get out of there that day.

And, uh, finally got out, went, you know, had to spend, I think it was like a month on base just doing... It, it was so humiliating, you know, 'cause I was picking up cigarettes and doing yard work around the base and, uh, my, my self-esteem just fell through the floor. And then ended up going to a rehab in Camp Pendleton Marine Base out in California, and then I got discharged after that. So how long did it take from the time you admitted drug use till you got home to your girlfriend? I think-

I think it was around two months. Oh, wow. Yeah, it wasn't a quick process. Two months So I ended up getting out of the military, uh, reuniting with her. We ended up getting married, you know, later on that year. And, uh, uh, you know, and it all blurs together. That, that's the thing about complex, is you can't... You, you lose a lot of memory. Yeah, that was an interesting thing I discovered when we were together, that, like, I wouldn't say my childhood was particularly traumatic, and I have a very strong, vivid memory, but I remember you saying how there's a lot that you can't remember. So it's an interesting thing about complex PTSD- which is something we discovered- Mm-hmm through our relationship that you suffered with, that you lose a lot of memories. Because you're... You know, I don't understand or I don't know how to explain the science behind it, but you're not in a memory-making space. You're in a survival flight or- Yeah,

exactly in your brain. And, you know, I was... We were together about 10 years. I think we were married for nine. And I don't remember a lot of it. I know I wasn't good to her. Uh, my temper was bad. I was my father, you know? I reacted the same way to things that my father did. I yelled, I screamed. I was scary. I was a scary person to be around. When did you... How, like, how... Did you realize that you weren't good to her during the relationship or reflecting back on it? Reflecting back. Yeah. Reflecting back. The thing is, I loved her. I loved her dearly, you know, and I didn't wanna be like that. But my psychological state was just getting worse and worse and worse. And, uh, you know, I went to work in the oil industry.

You know, and towards the end of our relationship, I went to work in this country called Azerbaijan, and I would spend five weeks at a time there. Five weeks on, five weeks off. Five weeks on, five weeks off. And, uh, I remember there, one of the times I was there, there was one of the, the big school shootings. I, I can't... It wasn't the Sandy Hook one, was it? Sandy Hook. Oh, it was? That's what it was. It was Sandy Hook. I believe it was... Uh- That was the one with the kids. I, I think. I think that was the one, 'cause I remember it shook me so bad and my psychological state was so bad, I started thinking, "What if this is me?" Yeah, I think it was him. "What if, what if I could do something like that?" I didn't trust my, my head space anymore.

And because of that I ended up um, telling my wife that I wanted... I didn't tell her why I just told her I didn't want to be with her anymore. She didn't understand and I couldn't explain it and I basically just forced her into a divorce because if we weren't together then I didn't have to think about doing horrible things to her through these intrusive thoughts when we were around each other, you know? And I mean, you can run away from it, but eventually if you ever want a shot at companionship, it's something that you're going to have to confront. But I just always thought, you know, if I ran away long enough then it would just go away

And that's n- not the case And that's kinda why the, the milit- or not the military, the oil field kinda worked for you because you're always on a rotation, so, you know, you may notice problems at home, but then you're going back and working, so you can kind of ignore them, and then you would travel different places to kind of run away, I guess, from your- Exactly. I would travel all over. I would do my five weeks at work, then I'd go... I ended up spending like a year in Mexico, a year in Costa Rica, a year... Just, yeah, all these different places. Traveling- Australia Australia. You know, and just running. Just running, you know? And by the time it was time to get settled or I'd meet a friend or a potential, you know, dating relationship or whatever, it's time to go back to work and I could forget about it. So you never really, really got into the depths of your psyche through

the mirror of a relationship? Not at all. Not even close. And, um, so, you know, and this, this is kinda where it comes to the part of the story where most people know that my story begins, where I was a psychological mess from my mid-20s to my mid-30s. But this really is the point to where I, I was th- I was having these bouts of depression. I, I would just start crying for no reason, or I would have these random bouts of anxiety almost to the point where I felt like I was, I was having panic attacks. I could be sitting on my couch watching TV, and within moments, in the corner of the room balled up in the fetal position. And- And this was before you found ayahuasca? Yeah. With- with- without the ability to say anything but, "Help," be in a room by myself. And, you know, it got d- and I, I wasn't sleeping. I was having chronic nightmares. The night... I

was scared to go to sleep because of the things that I would dream. And, uh, and then the suicidal ideations began to become more comforting than scary. And that was when you knew you needed to figure something out, to start unpacking whatever was going on with you. That's right. I knew, I knew that I needed to talk to a professional. I didn't know anything about healing back then. I just knew that if I did not figure this out, then I was gonna hang myself from a tree by the end of the year

So there was a friend of the family who was a therapist, and I reached out to her to talk to her and, you know, we just spent a long afternoon talking to one another for several hours, you know, kinda unpacking a little bit about childhood, about the symptoms I was experiencing, for how long I was experiencing them. And she goes, "Well, the good news is I don't think you're going crazy." Because I did. I thought I was going insane. I legit thought I was losing my mind. She goes, "However, you do seem to be showing signs of PTSD or complex PTSD."

And she goes, "The road to therapy is going to be a long one. It's probably going to become much more difficult before it gets easier, and here are some medication options." You know, and I knew guys from the service that had went the pill route, you know, medications, and I knew that wasn't the way I wanted to go, and I was stubborn. And so I was like, "Well, I'm probably not gonna do any of this. I'll, I'll find something else or I'll die trying." And that's when ayahuasca started speaking to you. Yeah. So I'd went down to Mexico. You know, I spent some time down in Mexico on my time off just kind of being a dive bum. Ended up getting my dive master certification. I remember I came back to Dallas one weekend. That's where my brother and his wife lived, and we went out to dinner. We went out to this little Lebanese shisha bar, and we were sitting around smoking a hookah,

and my brother goes, "Do they have ayahuasca where you're at down there in Mexico?" I was like, "Aya-what?" And he goes, "Well, it's supposed to be this really powerful psychedelic. Apparently it makes you violently ill, but then it gives you a glimpse into your psyche." And I was like, "Well, my psyche's a pretty scary place. I don't know if I wanna go digging around in it." And I remember I... You know, a girl I was dating tried to get me into meditation. I couldn't meditate for more than a minute because my head would turn so scary and, uh, didn't think much of about... or didn't think much about it. Ended up going back to Mexico, you know, a few days later, and I was cheap. You know, I took the cheap route. I'd, I'd fly into Cancun on the midnight flight, take a bus from Cancun to Playa del Carmen, stay the night in Playa, and then catch a ferry over to Cozumel- Which is

where you lived at the time which is where I lived the n- the next day. And then, so I flew into Cancun. We, we were waiting on the bus, and because it's a red-eye flight, uh, this is probably like December, so there wasn't a lot of people vacationing in Mexico. It was just me and this one other guy waiting for this bus, this Canadian dude, and we sparked up a conversation, you know, as we were waiting on the bus. And then when they gave us our bus tickets, they, they gave us our seats right beside each other, and we coulda sat anywhere on the bus. The bus was completely empty with the exception for us two. But because we'd already started a conversation, we decided to s- sit next to each other and, and keep talking. And, um, somewhere on that conver- I don't even remember how it came about But he goes, uh, he started talking about ayahuasca. I was like, "Oh, man, my

brother was just telling me about this." You know? And he was telling me about they got places in Peru you know, that work with vets and PTSD and things like that, and that he would send me some, uh, links of things to look at. So just marked it off as coincidence. Got back to Cozumel a few days later, ended up going down to the dive shop. I was gonna catch a morning dive, and my buddy Sean was sitting down at one of the outside tables having breakfast. And I said, "Yo, Sean, what's up, man? What have you been up to?" He goes, "Oh, not much. Gonna catch this dive, and then I'm getting ready to head over east, east Mexico." I said, "What's happening out east?" He goes, "My girlfriend told me about this ayahuasca shaman that's out there." I said, "Well, you gotta be fucking kidding me. It's the third time I've heard about this in a week." And it was something I decided

to start looking into. So I remember a couple of weeks later, I flew back to work to Azerbaijan, Azerbaijan, and I was out on a rig. I was probably out there for 21 days. It was... Our-- What we were doing was slow, so I had a lot of downtime. And I was on a computer, and I was looking, um... I was watching a Joe Rogan podcast, and he was interviewing Aubrey Marcus. And I remember this interview specifically because Aubrey was kind of talking about the differences between iboga and ayahuasca, and I knew nothing of the plant medicine world at this time. Like nothing. And, um,

You know, and a link came up on, uh, on, on, uh- Like a Google ad? Yeah, like a Google ad on that video, and it was a link to this ayahuasca center down in Peru. And I opened the link, and I filled out the little application, and then I signed up for a retreat about three months later. And, uh, and then that was my first basically dive into ayahuasca And we sat with, you know, ayahuasca was very difficult for me. Like I said, I had no understanding of what I want. When I signed up for it, I got really excited about it, started reading books and watching videos, and thought I had an understanding of what it was going to be. Thought I'd go in there, drink this psychedelic tea, and then I, I thought I would just have visions, just a vision quest, you know, of maybe animal transformations or soaring through the universe, or just all these things that I was reading about.

I didn't understand the, what that entails, the dimension change of actually crossing into a different dimension with the entities and, you know, the... It, it, it was just a very bizarre and scary experience for me because I hadn't... What I thought I was getting into was not what I was getting into. And the, the ceremonies were very, very, very challenging. It was-- I had so much fear after the first one, and I, I never really... You know, that's why I tell people ayahuasca wasn't really my medicine. It...

And maybe I didn't give it enough time, but it, but it was just so excruciating to get through. I, I didn't spend a lot of time in the love and light realm. I spent a lot of time in the shadow and the darkness, which was necessary because it was confronting things within myself. But I didn't understand these things that I was being confron-confronted with, so it was just very, very scary. But I knew I was getting something from it, you know. That there was definitely... It didn't really take away the symptoms that I was having, but I was starting to understand why I was having them. Which, you know, like I tell our students, understanding is the first stage of healing. You gotta know what it is that you even need to heal. Um, so just came back and forth to the jungle over the course of a year or so, working with ayahuasca. And, uh, until it just got too difficult. You know, it

just got... They, they were so challenging and so scary and so uncomfortable that when I was sitting there with a glass of ayahuasca in my hand, my hand would just be trembling, just shaking, right? And it got to a point where I just could not surrender to the experience. I would just spend six hours in this anguish, you know. But I knew there was something to these Amazonian medicines So even though it wasn't ayahuasca, I knew I still needed to pursue more. Now, kinda at this time, me and this girl had moved to Canada. That's where she was from, from the west coast of Canada, and we were living up in this place called Squamish. And, uh, in Squamish, there was this iboga center that I had found out about. And I started reading about iboga, and I thought, "Well, maybe iboga will be easier than ayahuasca." So I reached out to this guy, I think his name was Jeremy or something. I can't remember

exactly. And, uh, started asking him about iboga, and he was telling me about it. And I-- Then I began to tell him, you know, "How does it compare to ayahuasca? Since ayahuasca is really challenging for me," you know. And he goes, "Well, those that are nervous about coming in to iboga, we first introduce them to kembo." And I said, "What's that?" He goes, "Well, it's this secretion that comes from a frog." I'm like, "Oh, I've been hearing about this toad medicine. It is very psychedelic." He goes, "No, no, no. That's, that's something different." He goes, "Kembo is the secretion of the frog that just really helps with stabilizing the nervous system before going into something like iboga." So he gave me some things to read, and I began to read about kembo, and I became obsessed just, just with reading about it. And there's, there's just something that spoke to me. So I scheduled a session right before I was scheduled to go back to

Azerbaijan, and then he canceled the session on me. He, he couldn't make it or something. Didn't he cancel twice on you? Yeah. So I went back to work, and I thought, "All right. We'll catch it when I come back." So I came back right at the beginning of my hitch back, tried to schedule another one. He was sick, couldn't do it, so then I scheduled another one right before I was about to go back to work And then his wife called me up and said, "S- sorry, Jeremy, he's not going to be able to work with you." I said like, "Not this time?" Or she goes, "Sorry, Jeremy, he's not gonna be able to work with you." Hmm. Which I thought was just super bizarre. I was like, "Okay, well it's back to the jungle." So started doing some research, and I found out about this place about, I think it was about 200 or 300 miles, or 300 kilometers outside of

Iquitos down in Peru with these guys that offer kambo. And, uh- This is a story you always tell the kambo students. Yeah. So I ended up going down to Peru, flying to Iquitos. Iquitos kind of known as the capital of the Amazon. It's like the, the, the, the little city where all the through traffic from the river come. They got a wet market there. You know, there's just a lot going on in Iquitos, and there's no roads in or out. You can only get there by boat or by plane. So we basically took a road out of Iquitos almost till the road comes to a stop. This place out in the jungle, and then they let you off on the side of the road. Met one other guy there, and it's a couple hour hike back into the jungle. And when we got there, it was very primitive. I mean, there's no electricity, there's no running water. Like, we bathed in the shower, or we,

we bathed in the river. You know, you had very primitive setups. We had, like, a little Tambo, which is basically an elevated platform with a mattress on it and mosquito net around it, and then about probably 15 feet from your tambo is a little hole in the ground. That was your bathroom. So, you know, we get here, we get settled in, and, um, and then there's a couple of guys from the Matsés tribe. Or it's this one guy named Robinson and his wife and this other guy that would come through, and they would serve kembo to people, uh, you know, that, that were in that area. So came, and then Robinson came, you know, that morning, and they had like this little maloca set up, and we're hanging out in the maloca, I remember. And we had a translator, and he and Robinson, you know, the Matsés gentleman... And I mean, we're talking Matsés jaguar tattoos running down the sides of the face, like we're

in it. And, you know, with the translator, he goes, "Have you ever experienced kembo before?" And I said, "No, first time." He goes, "Are you nervous?" I said, "Yeah, I'm a little bit nervous." And he goes, "Ah, that's normal." He goes, "First time people experience kembo, they're nervous because they don't know what to expect." He goes, "The second time people experience kembo, they're nervous because they do know what to expect." And I, I remember in that moment, I got really nervous because I knew, like, we were in it. This, this is it. And, uh, and it also made me realize how much I didn't really know, again, about what I was really getting into. I'm getting ready to let these people apply this tree frog poison to an open wound that I know is going to have a reaction. But I was so just... I was ready to put it all... I couldn't live in my head anymore. Yeah. And I was just ready to

put it all on the line So that next morning, me, Robinson down the Maloca, and there was this five-gallon water jug, blue water jugs. And we went down to the river, and I just, I was just kind of following him, just watching him. And he took that water jug, and he dipped it in the river, filled it up, and then we came back to the Maloca-type structure, and he hung that. He, he put like this little contraption on the bottom of it with a hose. Probably had about a six-foot hose. In the middle of this six-foot hose was a little white, looked like about an inch wide, maybe a quarter inch in diameter, that basically fit inside this hose, looked like a little sponge. And he hung that rafter from the ceiling, and that hose went down to the ground, and he, and he held it into a, uh, into a little two-liter bottle of water.

And y- and that basically, I watched that brown river water go drip, drip, drip through that little sponge into that bottle. And when that bottle had so much in it, he goes... And it was still brown, the water, and he goes, "Go ahead and drink this." And I said, "You want me to drink this water that just came out of the river?" And he pointed at that little sponge and said, "It's filtered." I said, "Okay." So I drank it, and I knew, I knew for sure I was gonna get sick just from the water itself. And then he burned a couple of gates on my arm,

and then he took the secretion from the frog, and he applied it to these open wounds. And I started to feel the medicine probably within about a minute, maybe a little sooner. My heart rate started to rise. My head started to feel weird, started to get a weird pressure in my head. And then my body started to feel incredibly strange. And then, you know, a lot of people don't, don't realize this, but I actually have quite a sensitivity to cambo. I can't sit with a lot of cambo. And

after a few moments, my body had locked up into a state of rigor, and I went-- It's like one big muscle cramp. And I went down on my side, and I began to convulse, conscious through the whole thing. And, uh And I-- it, it, it was just such a bizarre experience, because alls I could do was witness what was happening. I couldn't speak, I couldn't say anything. And I remember Robertson looked concerned, and he kinda knelt down beside me and cocked his head and looked at me, and he looked back to his friend on the other side of the maloca and goes, "Oi." And his friend kinda looked over at him, looked over at me, perplexed, shrugged his shoulders. Robertson looked at him, looked back down at me, looked back at him, shrugged his shoulders, and then they both walked off.

They walked off and had breakfast. And then you were just laying there twisted up on your side. And just left me right there on the floor. And I thought, "Well, Chase, we did it this time. We've gotten ourselves into something we might not come back from." But after a few moments, the rigor let go. I ended up having a nice purge into a bucket. And I'd say after about 20 m- 20 or 30 minutes of the medicine going on, I started to feel good. Or it, it, it... I was out of the experience, and then I started to feel good. And as time went by, I started feel- and then I started to feel real good. And I was like, "Wow, I-- This feels..." Like, I felt strong. I felt confident. I felt new

And that was about all for that day. But when I woke up that morning, I'd slept six hours that night, which a lot of people hearing this would go, "Six hours doesn't sound like a good night of sleep," but I'd not slept six hours in a decade. And when I woke up, and it's hard to explain, you know, to folks what that feels like because sometimes you don't know how far gone you are until you're back. Yeah. And I think that's a, a feeling a lot of people that discovered plant medicine or amphibian medicine at, at their low points, 'cause I, I felt that exact same feeling after ibogaine. I was like, "Thank God- Yeah Kelly is back." Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's like Jason is fucking back, you know? And I learned how to self-administer while I was there. Then I came home and that's, that's all I would do for the next year. I would just self... I'd set up once a

month next to my toilet in the bathroom, self-serve myself kambo, go through the kambo. And I could just... Over the next year, I could feel my psyche getting stronger, my physical body getting stronger, just my, my spirit getting stronger. And I knew that there was something to this. And, you know, something I tell people is n- I never had this innate desire to be a kambo practitioner when I grew up. But after what kambo had done for me, it, it had felt more like an obligation. It's like the... If it could do this for me, maybe it could do this for others. And if there really is something to this, why is it not being talked about?

And so I began to talk about it. And, you know, I, I wanted to serve other people, but I knew how powerful this medicine was, and I knew how much of a physical reaction it could cause that I didn't... I, I knew I didn't have the knowledge to start serving other people. I needed to educate myself more about this, and you could only find so much online at that time. And there was one international outfit at the time that was actually-- And they were pretty new at that time, and they were actually training people in kambo on how to be practitioners. So I ended up signing up for their program, and I went to their program in Sri Lanka. It's like a two-week-long program. And, you know, you have to remember, this was my very first introduction into the medicine world, ayahuasca and kambo, and I'd not been in it that long. And the, you know, their practitioner program was fun. I met a lot

of great people, some people that I'm still friends with to this day. But I, I f- I didn't f- By the time it was over, I didn't feel like I knew a lot about kambo. Like, it, it seemed to be centered more around just kinda new age spirituality of altar building and singing and, you know, very similar... It's almost like they were trying to make kambo into ayahuasca, right? The same type of ceremony. That just wasn't my experience in the jungle. Yeah, the other funny thing about that is, you know, like that type of training, you know, where it is, you know, the ceremonial aspect, the singing and the altar building, like, you know, of course, that can be very prevalent in what is seen as normal, you know, in the, in the medicine world. However, you know, Jace is an ex-oil field, ex-military guy. Exactly. Like, you know, and that's not his style. Exactly. So it felt very foreign, felt very uncomfortable. But you

don't know what you don't know, you know? And I went out, and I, and I started to work with kambo how I'd been taught under the umbrella of this organization. And I, and I made a lot of mistakes in the beginning, a lot of mistakes. You know, even our students, I tell them, you know, "The kambo practitioner program that I have is built on the backs of all the mistakes that I've made in attempts to try to keep you from making the same ones." And I learned a lot in these early years. But, you know- As Campbell was coming on the scene about 10 years or so ago, it, it was new. It had left the jungle, people were working with it in first world countries, and there was still a lot that wasn't known about it. And some people started to get hurt, and even some people had, had died as a result of sitting with Campbell. And to find out later really had

not anything to do with Campbell, but the way the Campbell was being served. But at that time, I didn't know. You know, we just knew that people were getting hurt and some fatally injured. So me and a, a few other people started asking the hard questions. Why is this happening? Can it be prevented, or is it just random? And unfortunately, the answers that we were getting back was a lot of deflection, even some victim blaming, um, of these people that had gotten hurt. And I remember the, the one that did it in for me, there's this girl in Australia that had went through this training program.

And she came back from that training program, uh, got one of her friends to sit with her, who was also a Campbell practitioner, not trained by this organization. From my understanding, she put an exorbitant amount of dots across her chest, ended up going into cardiac arrest and dying. So we started asking the questions again. Why is this happening? And they said, "Well, the person that had sat with her was not certified. She wasn't trained." Uh, and but, but we were like, "But she was, and she still thought it was okay to do this." And I, it just wasn't getting anything back to make me feel good about continuing this practice. Because, you know, my whole aim in this was to help people, and if there was a chance I could ever hurt anybody, I wouldn't do it. Just full stop. So I ended up leaving the organization and putting the Kemball sticks down for a bit. And, but, but like this little animal gnawing at

my brain going, "You can figure this out," I just, I couldn't let it go. You know? I couldn't, I just couldn't stop thinking about it, 'cause I knew what it had done for me, and I kn- starting to see what it was doing for others. You can figure this out. Yeah. And you, you trying to figure it out after the Australia incident was, like, within the first year of our relationship. Mm-hmm. And I mean, even I could see as your partner that this was gnawing at your brain, like, you know, we would wake up, have a slow morning, and you're digging into why people purge. Yes. Like, okay.

Exactly. So I started going to rabbit hole after rabbit hole after rabbit hole, and there wasn't a lot available at that time to read about Kemball. But what was available was this single paper by this pharmacist named Rosa Sanchez, which was, which was a complete chemical analysis of every peptide in Kemball. And I thought, "This is my starting point." Right? Because the way this organization had kinda... Their, their concept around Kemball was it's a cleanse. It's a detox. You know, you drink two liters of water before the session, and that session doesn't end until there's colorful purge in that bucket, meaning there's bile, right? In the purge. That's because their philosophy was if you don't purge, then the toxins that are being released in your body could potentially be reabsorbed and make you more sick than what you were to begin with. Which I never really understood. I mean, I wasn't great at science, but I knew a little about fundamental biology, and I knew

that wasn't really the way that biology worked. So I started going just down rabbit hole after rabbit hole after rabbit hole, and each one of these peptides, understanding how they function, understanding, you know, how they engage or interact with the biology of our own body. And what- And even understanding more about the purge, like why we purge even without Kemball. Yeah. Why the human body purges. Exactly. I wanted to know why we purge. What's a detox? Is there really anything to a detox? Are we really even purging out toxins? And what I began to understand is that up until that point, I'd not known anything about Kemball And it shifted the whole way I began to practice, right? Because I, I began to realize that all the healing components of kambo basically functioned off the backs of these bioactive and neuropeptides in kambo, not as a detox or a cleanse, but kind of more of as enhancement. You know, and I re- I began to

learn that we actually have over 7,000 peptides that we create endogenously in our own body, right? They're kinda like nature's little natural mechanics that keep everything operating how it's supposed to operate, keeping the whole machine in balance, right? For, for a clean bill of health. And, you know, even understanding that the purging from kambo was more of a pharmacological reaction of the kambo being in the bloodstream rather than actually purging out toxins. And it, and it shifted the whole way that We worked with Kambo. You know, I went down from two liters of water pre-Kambo only to a half liter of water and then putting no pressure on the purge, understanding that purge or not, Kambo will still, still do its job. You know, and then there's a lot of people that were really strict around Kambo, people that were like, or practitioners that are like, "You gotta meet the medicine with your chest. You need to sit up during the whole thing and kinda

have like this stoic, you know, energy in your ceremony." And we took a more, you know, comfortable approach of just letting people find their own comfort zone and just being more of a guide to be there to help them through their ceremony, but not dictate it, right? Giving them doses that were manageable and allowing the purge to happen on its own if it was even going to happen at all. Yeah, I kinda like what you tell some of our students and other people you educate on Kambo, like about the thing about like, you know, you gotta sit up and meet the medicine with your chest, you know, because it's a warrior medicine. You know- Mm-hmm which of course that, that is true in the jungle. But keep in mind too that a lot of people that are coming to Kambo are, are not in good, good mental states, good physical states, and you know, they're just wanting to feel better. You may not necessarily have

a warrior sitting in front of you at first. Yeah, and you know, our approach of, you know, a smaller, more manageable dose, especially for people that are in a weakened state, because you may not have a warrior when they first see you, but if they keep at it, you may shape them into a warrior. You know, not the same style of jungle warriors, but their own version of a warrior. No, exactly, because this was also a time when Kambo wasn't really that known about, you know? It's this very kind of a new aggressive medicine that was coming on the scene, and it's why I always say I have so much, you know, admiration for people that walk through that door to sit with the Kambo session because I know the courage that it takes to get there. You know, they've seen these YouTube videos of people exaggerating the experience, you know, talking about how they felt like they were gonna die and their insides were

melting and all these other things that I, you know, how I've heard Kambo described, which was never really my experience. So even though people would see these videos and hear these stories, but still know that something inside of them was being pulled to Kambo, even though they knew it could potentially be a very excruciating experience, they would still find themselves there on that mat. And because of that courage, I didn't feel the need to punish them through the ceremony, you know, making them sit up tall or all these other things. It's like, no, the medicine will go on. You find a position that's manageable and allow the medicine to do its work. Doesn't matter if you're sitting up or you're laying down, Campbell will do its job. Purge or not, Campbell will do its job. And when we began working in this new way, these more manageable doses, less pressure on the purge and, you know, a couple other things,

people were finding out that they could have massive benefits from this medicine without having to wreck themselves in a ceremony. And I remember our client tell went from about 5 to 10 people per month and in a course of about four months going from 50 to 70 people per month. And that's when we knew we were onto something. And it just got to the point where it was too much for you and me to do, you know. And, you know, we talked a little bit about this in your podcast, but came to Creed, you know, and anybody that wants to hear where our relationship began and how that played out, you know, it can go back to your podcast. But then when we, you know, I came to Creed and you showed me what is now the Campbell House and it just clicked on me and I was like, I've been working with Campbell a couple of years at this time and I thought, I

think we can do a school here. Like we need more of us. And the intention initially was just to create more people to kind of take the load off. But we were just always under, you know, the impression that if they keep coming, we'll just keep teaching. And they just kept coming. You know, and that's really where I guess beginning of the school began. But even You know, it's not like we just started a school and then everything was just a beautiful medicine happy ending. Like, I would say beginning the school was real, where my real work began. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, up until, you know, we started the school pretty close after we had gotten together, so of course we were still in the beginning fun phases of the relationship. But once we had started the school, we were kinda moving out of that phase. And yeah, the school for us was a lot more than just training people. You know, it's one experience for our students, but it's also, it was also a huge experience for us facilitating and hosting these schools. So yeah, I would say that's where the real work began, you know, for you personally, for me personally, and, you know, for our relationship together. Because it was the intensity and the stress of the school that really brought everything to the surface that we needed to work out essentially. So,

the school, since we started the school, it's been a pretty, pretty difficult journey. I would say within a few months of starting the school is when my demons started to, kinda start to show their faces again. Yeah. You know? And, uh, you know, it's, hindsight's always 20/20, but reflecting back, even on my whole medicine journey. You know, in the beginning, like finding Campbell and finding this s- psychological relief and whatnot, I, I realized that even though Campbell was taking me there, I was still using this medicine as a distraction from the real work. I was focusing more on feeling better rather than getting to the crux of where my mental health really was and, and, uh, you know, and the events that led to it. Yeah. And like we said, it took me reflecting that back to you

of where you were still at. And what would you say that you noticed when you s- when you started to see the, the problems start to rise? I mean, it took me a while to, like, figure out, like, exactly what was going on with you because, you know, like, like I said, my family wasn't... Growing up in childhood, I wouldn't say it was particularly traumatic. I mean, of course there w- there's dysfunction in my family, just like every other family. So, you know, I had never dated a guy like you. Like, you know, my dad was, like, compared to your dad, I would say they're polar opposites. Like, my dad was very calm, very... You know, I, I had a strong sense of safety with my dad. Um, but like I said, you know, just, you know, because, uh, my childhood wasn't particularly traumatic, you know, of course there was dysfunction. And so it was interesting dating somebody like you, you know, because again, my

dad was very calm. I had never dated somebody that, like, had a strong temper, anger. Like, you know, so it took me a while to kind of understand what was going on with you. And You know, it's, it's, I don't know, it's just interesting us coming together because, you know, we're very similar, but in ways we're polar opposite. We had completely, you know, different fathers, different childhoods in general. And, you know, my... You know, your thing was more anger and temper and, you know, you, you suffered psychological problems. Like, my thing, like, more in, in my family, you know, especially on my dad's side, is more to avoid conflict. It, it's almost like the opposite of getting, getting... you know, having a temper, getting angry, of just absorbing conflict, not saying anything when things are right. And, and, you know, I've always been a relationship person, and each one of my relationships, like, I understood through the reflection of our relationship that my thing in

relationships is that I commit so hard to the relationship, to the person that I'm with, almost to the point where I absorb their mental problems, try to understand it, figure it out, you know, because I'm that committed to love. You know, I know that that sounds silly, but it, it's true. That's, you know, that's how I've always been in relationships. So, and, you know, I kind of did that through my prior relationship through heroin addiction. You know, like I told you guys in my podcast, like, you know, I was a good student and good athlete. Like, I wouldn't normally find myself in opiate addiction, but, you know, I found myself in a relationship with somebody that struggled with opiate addiction. And, you know, like I said, there, there was some f- fam- family reasons and, you know, stress around that that, you know, probably contributed to, to me choosing to go into addiction. But like I said, my thing is diving deep, so deep into

the relationship that I absorb the mental problems of the person that I'm with. So, you know, I, I had noticed that you had, you know, of course, temper problems, and it seemed to, like, always come out around the Kambo School. You know, I didn't understand, I didn't understand that much about psychological stuff besides, like, addiction, 'cause I had experienced that firsthand. But I didn't understand, like, what I had noticed that you were... Uh, you know, at the time I didn't understand it, but now I under- understand it, that you were suffering with complex PTSD So, and again, a lot of times, you know, just like, like I said, it's different for the students versus us. Like, the medicine always brings things to the surface, and it did for us too. It was just different 'cause, you know, it brought things to the surface through teaching it, not sitting with it like our students. So I noticed that there was always a lot of turnup of

psychological problems that you would have, uh, sometimes before Kambo schools, but a lot of times afterwards in the processing of the Kambo school. So, you know, you had, of course, temper problems, and I had noticed always after Kambo school, it was almost like your nervous system got super overwhelmed in the- Might not go manic. You would go manic and, you know, you would be in an s- almost like, yeah, you'd be in a manic state after Kambo school, you know. Almost like hyper-awareness. Yeah. After Kambo school, I would just kinda wanna rest and relax and recoup, but you would almost wanna start a new project or, you know, and, and, you know- Or expand the business or- Or expand the business and we- Save the world yeah. And we were already holding a lot in doing what we did and, you know, so But it w- it was, it, that's the thing is when you go into a manic state, and I'm sure this is

similar to anybody that, that struggles with, you know, o- nervous system overload or going into manic states after stressful periods, I couldn't talk to you. It was almost like, you know, you were a different person. Like, I wasn't talking to Jason's heart, I was talking to Jason's mania essentially. So, and we would always get in knock-down, drag-out fights, like after Kambo schools. And you know, it, it took me several years of trying to understand why and trying to move us into a place, you know, where that wasn't happening anymore. But like I said at the beginning, I didn't really understand all that you had suffered with. But again, that's the thing that makes it difficult with complex PTSD. 'Cause whether you're in a manic state or a, a state where your nervous system is kind of just, you know, overloaded like it is after a Kambo school, it, it's almost like the fight or flight part of the brain is a- is activated. And I,

I, I can't remember, I, I did research on this where, you know, like wh- you know, when you get into those states, like your... I think it's like your amygdala either gets over-activated or under-activated, and you don't have access to the part of your brain that, you know, can process emotional nuance, reason, you know, th- th- things of the heart really. You know, so it was hard to communicate with you. And sometimes me trying to communicate this with you of what I saw going on with you, you would unintentionally gaslight me, which, you know, I know of course wa- was hard for you to hear at the time, and I'm sure even now, and you know, get angry. Like in a way, you know, like I kinda saw it as you were maybe being similar to your father, where someone like me having emotions about what I'm seeing come up in you, you would get angry at me and try to control my emotions instead

of listening to what I'm telling you. So it was always very difficult after Kambo schools. We would get into very intense fights. Um, and you know, it took me a l- you know, e- each fight we grew, you know? Each fight we grew, but I could still tell we weren't fully making headway, you know, years, years into doing this operation. Um- And yeah, it was difficult. Like I had, you know, you know, I, I had realized after a couple years of, you know, going through this that, you know, I was kind of starting to... I- it's not exactly like I was starting to suffer PTSD, it's just my nervous system was overwhelmed from having to deal with this. So I felt like I had kinda lost myself, and I had noticed that. And, you know, it was hard bringing things up to you because like I said, when you're in a manic state, I can't really get you to listen to me. Um, but yeah,

and sometimes you would, you know, and, you know, like I always knew it wasn't you. Like I always knew that there was something else going on that we had to figure out as a team. Um, but you know, like I said, I started, you know, suffering, you know, s- problems from my nervous system being overloaded where I noticed that I had kinda lost myself. So sometimes after fights when I would s- explain to you or after Cambo Schools when I would try to explain to you what I kinda saw going on in your brain, you know, when you would get mad at me and try to control the situation by controlling my emotions, li- you know, like I said, when, when you would sometimes reflect back to me that, you know, it's me being emotional or, or whatever, you know, because I had lost myself, it took me a while to reflect and really look at who I was. And like I said, li- my

c- my issues are not as much anger problems. They're more absorbing s- stuff and ignoring things and not saying things. And so, you know, and again, I always knew it wasn't you, and I knew, always knew we could figure it out. But just because I knew that wasn't you didn't mean what you were doing to me didn't have an effect on me Um, so I had to be honest with myself in that. And, you know, so sometimes, you know, when I would express to you what I was seeing and you would put it back on me, I had to really reflect on who I was as, as a person. And I knew, like I know who I am as a person. Like I knew that I'm not somebody that's over- over-emotional. I'm not somebody... Like I knew my issue was more absorbing things and not, you know, what you, you know, your manic mind was telling me, which was, um, you know, I was being

too emotional. So in, in a way it, it also strengthened me even though I had to go through a lot of hard in order to get to that strength, because I, like I said, I had to really reflect on who I was. And, and, you know, once I understood that and I understood like, you know, things were getting better at each, after each fight, but I could still tell that we didn't understand exactly what was going on with your brain, and I wasn't able to convey it to you until I stood strong in my conviction that like, "No, this isn't me. This is something I see in you. I'm bringing this up out of love so we can figure it out and become closer together." I also studied a lot of masculine-feminine polarity topics which also helped me understand it all. Um, but like I said, we had made a lot of progress from fight to fight, but it wasn't until I really became strong

in my conviction. It's like even though I know when you get into h- hypervigilant nervous system states, you know, you go into a different state where I don't feel like I have access to Jason's heart again. And so... Yeah, again, I knew, um, you know, even though I knew it wasn't you, you know, of course I knew it still had an effect on me. And I also knew in order for us... Like that, that was what's, was interesting about studying masculine and feminine polarity. In order us, in order for us to really get where we needed to go, I needed to stand firm in my side and not do my side of the relationship, so just letting things go by the wayside. And even though we had made progress, I knew we weren't where we needed to be. And I also know the feminine, feminine is designed to bring out the best in the masculine. So even though it was hard to face you sometimes

because, you know, it, it, you know, you're intense like I'm sure just like facing your dad was. But I knew in order for you to be the best man that you could be, that I had to do my part in, you know, standing up to it essentially and getting you to hear me. Um, so yeah, like I, and you know, I, I think that was like a few years back where I was, you know, really adamant about like, "If you don't figure this out, like, you know, we can't, you know, we can't keep doing this." And um, you know, I think it's been like, I don't know, maybe two or three years since that point, two and a half years since that, since that point. And you know, it's, it's still, you know, it's still been a journey to fully get there, but it was that breaking point that really, you know, me doing my part and standing up for myself really made it so

you could really understand what I was telling you so you could fully shift. And you know, since then, of course, like I said, it's still been work, but we've shifted i- into basically where I knew that we could get. And that's why, you know, that's why it's been such a difficult journey, 'cause it's, you know, a lot of people out there think that, you know, people like us have it all figured out. You know, like we've done the medicine, we've healed ourselves, and then life is just this beautiful journey now. And it's just not the way it is. You know what I mean? And uh, because life is ongoing, healing is ongoing, and, and y- you're never done. You're never done. Yeah. And you know, that's why complex is so- Complex PTSD. Yeah. It's so complicated because like from the standpoint of the person that has it

You know, such as myself, when you're acting out in these ways, you don't see it s- be- because, you know, when you're a child and you had no sense of safety, you become your own sense of safety, and you become your own sense of safety by controlling everything else around you. We don't have room for random, right? We need to be in control of everything. So, you know- But you can't control a woman. So I've learned. So, you know, if I would start getting stressed out or whatever, and it would start stressing you out, that would That's not good. That's not okay for me. So then I would try to control your emotions. "I need you to be like this so that I can stay stable." You know? But it's, uh, obviously reflecting back on it, you know, of how selfish and, and just absurd that is. But when you're in your head

Because, and that's, that's the diff- you know, PTSD is often, like, an event or maybe a series of events that had happened that now have d- that you have an impact, that, that, that have some type of effect on you, right? Where complex PTS is, it's, uh- Complex PTSD is essentially, a lot of times complex PTSD happens during childhood, and when it happens during childhood, it's much harder to overcome because the defense mechanisms you learn essentially become more- A part of you they become a part of you because that happens when you're forming your sense of self. So it's much... You can still have complex PTSD, um, even, you know, if you didn't have it in childhood. But it's essentially a multitude of traumatic events that happen over a long period of time, where it's hard to pinpoint a certain thing. It's exactly what it says. It's complex. So when I would go into these episodes and you were trying to, you know, reflect back

at me what you were seeing, is I had to basically distrust everything that I knew my brain was telling me was right. Yeah, and I knew that you had to do that, and I knew it was hard. But like I said, like, in going through this relationship, like, I understand my issues in relationship, but I also understood who I was. It's like, like I said, it's like I, you know, my dad was very calm. I had a strong sense of safety in childhood. So I could almost feel something going off with you before you could even feel it. So, like, even though it was hard for you to recognize, it's like I had to stay strong in my conviction. It's like I know my intuition is right, and even though it's hard to hear, you need to sit with that I think your, your head is in an overwhelmed state. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and that's why sitting with medicine is not enough. And, you

know, and integration is such a crucial part, but even integration by itself is not always enough to get you there. That's why having someone like you to be a reflection, you know, and not... It's, it's tricky because, you know, when you are that reflection, the other person's telling you you're full of shit. You know, and you're the problem. Yeah. You know what I mean? But it's, it's a gift to... I, I don't know if a gift is the right... It's a gift to me to have someone like you, for one, that would

Uh, see it through- Yeah as hard as it was, you know, to keep showing up out of your love for me to help me get there because I, I knew I was putting you through hell, you know? And I knew you could get there. I just knew how complex it was because the intensity of the childhood that you overcame. Yeah. And you know, I don't think I could've done it without Combo, but more importantly, I don't think I could've done it without you. By just being that mirror. Yeah. I know that's why I love studying masculine and feminine polarity because even though it was hard, I knew you wanted me to do my part of reflecting it back to you so you could be the best man that you could be. And I feel like the growth shows in our work too, because, you know, every year, even though every year has been intense and hard in its own way, we've gone through our knockdown,

drag outs, the lessons that we've learned, not just about medicine, but about the potential you can reach with medicine and the proper mirror. Because every year our, our business grew, our schools got better, our teachings got better. Like we... Even though we still, each year we're wondering if we're gonna make it through the year, like our growth was shining through in what we were able to offer the world. Yeah. Yeah, it's been a long, tough journey, but it was definitely worth it. Yeah. Well, what do you think? I think that's it, right? Yeah. Do you wanna say something to end it? Thank you for joining us. Yeah, I think we'll end it there. And, um, thanks for listening. And, uh, yeah, if you're ever struggling with anything yourself, you can always email us at tribaldetox@gmail.com, and maybe we can offer some assistance.

Yeah, have a good day.