Elisabeth Dalton: From Religious Deconstruction to Somatic Kambo & a Life of Service

Elizabeth, welcome to the show. Thanks. I'm happy to be here. So, you know, when we start these things off with any facilitator, the question I pose at the very beginning are what are the events that brought you to the medicine? Hmm. Okay. So I don't know. Like, I've called it chasing curiosity. I've called it being really passionate. I have an intense desire of understanding and for life, spiritually, physically, mentally, all of it. Um, so when I was young and deciding what to do in college, I wanted to study psychology. My dad talked me out of it. And I was working. I was living on my own, working, and I worked in, uh, retail banking of all places. Oh, okay. Yeah. And I used to massage my coworkers' and managers' str- necks and shoulders, and they were like- What, what was making you wanna go into psychol- I know so many people that- Yeah have gotten a psychology degree that never did anything psychology. Right, right.

And one of the, my dad's arguments, like, "Oh, only... All psychologists are crazy. Don't do that." But even at a young age, I had, um... I didn't know it at the time, but I've had chronic, uh, depression since puberty, and I just had this really deep desire of understanding people and helping them understand themselves, and maybe guiding people through the ebbs and flows of hard times. And especially, at first, I thought I wanted to work with teenagers 'cause I was a teenager. Mm-hmm. I'm like, "Life is hard. How do I do this?" And I just wanted to help people understand that it doesn't always have to be hard, and there's a way to navigate it, even though I didn't know... I had no framework of what that was gonna look like. So I'm like, "Well, if I study psychology, if I study the mind, maybe that will give me that map and that navigation." And then I ended up not doing it. Mm-hmm. So I'm,

like, in retail banking where it... High stress sales job. And massaging people and like one of my managers, Denise, she's like, "You missed your calling." Like, "You don't know what you're talking about, whatever." But she kept saying it over and over, and I'm like, "Oh, I guess I'll check out some of the massage schools in the area." This is in Thousand Oaks, California. And I went in to tour this one super tiny massage school, and I had the most intense gut feeling like, "You are supposed to be here." And I had no idea what that meant, but I was just gonna really trust it. So I enrolled immediately, came to Denise. I'm like, "Guess what? You have to change my schedule because I signed up for massage school." Nice. And that was when I was 23, and that just kinda created this giant snowball effect. Like, I had no idea that I loved science so much. Mm. But it really complemented this deep yearning and

passion for understanding. And then from there, it went into not just massage therapy, but into body work and into nutrition, and how can I help people on a really deep level. I started self-studying a lot of different modalities. I- Doesn't body work kinda be considered... I mean, you're kind of like a hairdresser. You're kind of a therapist- Yeah while you're giving massages. Absolutely. 'Cause they open up to you about everything, I'm sure. Everything. Everything under the sun. Some things you don't even wanna know. Um, but yeah, so it just... I started, like, seeing people. I'm like, "Well, massage therapy isn't gonna thing that's... be the thing that fixes you. It can be helpful in the whole protocol, but it's not gonna be the thing that fixes. So how can I help people more?" So I started studying nutrition, and I had a lot of my own gut health issues that also influenced me in trying to learn more to help myself and others simultaneously. I

got a certification in nutrition and health coaching. I was a certified colon hydrotherapist. I did cupping. I did myofascial release. I did energy work. Um, I just kept going, like, "Well, this is interesting. This is interesting." And someone even told me, like, "You're really greedy." "You're really greedy with your education. You're just always learning-" Mm-hmm running after things, and when are you just gonna stop?" I'm like, mm. Now, now at this point, are you starting to apply some of these modalities or- Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. So this was all through my mid, um, early mid and through late 20s. Okay. I really fell into specifically bodywork, and not everyone understands that there's... Not even massage therapists understand that there's a big difference between massage therapy and bodywork. Mm-hmm. So bodywork is very therapeutic, less relaxation. I like to say relaxation is a happy bro- byproduct. It's not the main goal. Mm-hmm. Like with deep tissue, generally speaking, anyone can apply deep pressure to someone, but deep

tissue is a very slow process, going layer by layer by layer. And when you're doing that with a lot of intention, a lot of old emotional energy start bubbling to the surface. Mm-hmm. And then I had to... I was working on myself as long as with working other people, and I had to learn how to navigate that. And I've always been a very, very feely, intuitive, can read the room person, and I never even had a teacher, so I kinda like had to teach myself. And while I was teaching myself, I started applying it to other people, and it started being really effective. And then I'd learn a little bit more and apply that and just kinda like work out the kinks as I would go, and it just got stronger and stronger and stronger. And then again, like, "Okay, well, this is really helpful. I'm doing the nutrition. I'm doing the bodywork. But I need something else." Like, and again, I had that conversation,

like, is it greed? Is it greed that I'm just chasing and chasing? Like, no, there's something else. And I was on this cusp between should I pursue kinesiology and physical therapy, or should I pursue nutrition, holistic nutrition? And then I got... I already knew about it, but I got reintroduced to Ayurveda, and I was reading this book that kinda helped reintroduce, and I'm like, "Oh, this is it. This is the thing." Vedic medicine, Vedic knowledge. It's a 5,000-year-old science. It's very time-tested. It's still effective. It's the oldest medicine system that's still, uh, in work, in practice in this day and age, which I just found completely fascinating. And so I enrolled there. And right after I enroll, my mom, whose one and only hobby is genealogy, she's like, "Oh, I just found out that we have Indian heritage." I'm like, "Shut up. I just enrolled in Ayurvedic medicine." So I enrolled. I went to SCU, um, started May of 2018. It's a two-year program. Very,

very grueling. It was really, really intense. And I met my then husband that summer as well. We were in a very passionate, tumultuous relationship. And then Ayurveda just opened all my, all these ideas, and that led to yogic philosophy. Less of the asana classes, less of the exercise, more of the philosophy, and that's spiritual philosophy. I'm like, "Oh, this works with all these ideas I have about psychology and all these ideas about the mind, the body, the spirit, and how that'll go together." And it was actually my ex-husband that brought me to the medicine work, 'cause he had been working with a friend of his. He's like, "Oh, you know what? I did this thing called kambo before I met you. I was supposed to do three sessions. I ended up only doing one 'cause I hated it, but it really helped my sinus infections." I'm like, "Oh, sounds weird," and I tried to do a little research 'cause I'm a information junkie. I'm like,

"I can't really find anything on this," but, I'm like, "But all I know is that it can make me vomit." That's all I knew. How long ago was this? This was the summer of 2020. Okay. Yeah, like through- So full lockdown. Full lockdown, and we were just gonna, you know, pop on over the border, this is in Southern California, to his friend's house. And there is an aspect in Ayurveda, was when you get into Ayurvedic, um, detox, that there's what's called panchakarma. And in panchakarma, a lot of people think that you have to do all of the modalities within panchakarma, but actually it is five methods of elimination that the doctor or the practitioner can have options to choose from and then apply it to different people. And so one of them is therapeutic vomiting. Mm. And that's specifically helpful, especially for the kapha people, which is like the water and earth elements, and a little bit for the pitta people, which is like the

fire and water elements, which I am. And is this also kind of dealing with polyvagal resetting, nervous system? Within panchakarma? Kind of, but they don't talk about it in those terms. Oh, you're right. Yeah. Of course. They talk about it through the qualities of the elements, and, and on f- surface level it can sound really confusing 'cause it's such a complex, detailed medicine system. But once you get to know those qualities of each element, everything actually becomes really easy to understand. But I already had this idea of therapeutic vomiting. I had already been a colon hydrotherapist for cleansing the colon. I was already in study nutrition and health to cleanse the GI tract and the hormones and the nervous system. So the idea that there's this other indigenous medicine that could really help with all of those things really, really intrigued me, and it's the middle of lockdown. And even though my husband and I were, like, together, we weren't together, we were separated, not

separated, so there was just like... It was the perfect storm, right? All the ingredients came together. And I know you know this, but when it comes to this medicine, it's like you have to be in the right spot. You either have to be really low, or you have to be, this is at least my experience, you have to be not too... If you're on the edge of the pits of despair, it's too scary to do medicine. Mm-hmm. Right? 'Cause you're clinging onto anything to help you stay grounded, and if you feel like something's gonna push you over that edge, if you feel like the ground's gonna crumble beneath you, that's too scary. So I was already in and out of the pits of despair. I'm like, "How much worse could it get?" Mm-hmm. Not that you wanna go into medicine with that framework, but that's where I was. And so we go over to the border, and it was a Friday morning, and we sit

with Kambo. It's just him and I with, um, the woman practitioner, and it's like August in Tecate. It was hot as hell. And now I'm sweating even more, and I remember at one point feeling so weak, and my partner has to go to the bathroom, and like intuitively I wanna help him. Like, there's no freaking way I can move my body, and I'm just watching him struggle, and she's helping him. Like, "Why the hell am I doing this? This is awful. Oh my gosh, what did I get myself into?" Hmm. And, you know, the whole thing's over, and after it's over and I rest and everything, like, "I feel pretty good. That wasn't that bad. I can do that again. This is pretty cool. I want to learn everything about this." Mm-hmm. And so the very next day she's like, "Hey, I have a group of 20 people coming. Do you wanna help me?" I'm like, "Yeah, I do." This was right after your- This

was the day after. Okay. Day after. Right into the deep end. Yeah. And, oh, I almost forgot about this. So this... It was a family. It was a family of 20 people. They come in, and she's like, "Hey, you see that woman with the really short hair?" I'm like, "Yeah." She's like, "They're the... She's the reason everyone's here," because she has pancreatic cancer, and about a year ago this time was gonna be her death date. She had done the chemo, and it didn't work, and the doctor said... And by no means am I recommending people to do this for cancer, but it was just my story and experience. And she's like, "The doctors tried everything. It didn't work." They're like, "You have weeks, months to live." And I got to meet her a year after her death date. Wow. And so when her family saw her getting better, they all decided to start doing Kambo. And so my job in that group was to help

this like 85-year-old grandma, this cute little abuela, um, just to sit, and it was her first time sitting, and it really shook her, but she did such a good job, and that one felt really inspiring. And then later that evening, I had a really, really, um, unpleasant, really difficult, uh, aya ceremony- Mm-hmm that rocked my world And I just felt so terrible by the next day and the next day Was that your first time experiencing? That was my first time. Was it challenging physically, spiritually? All of it. All, all of it. All of it. So I don't have regret for it. I feel like at this point it was very much my path, and it was necessary for what I need to go through, but it's not something I would choose for someone else. So the facilitator, um, did not speak English, and he did not offer any translation for prepping me, and I just showed up with another different set of 20 people,

um, with no preparatory, um, guidelines. For the ayahuasca? For the ayahuasca. Mm-hmm. Other than like, "Oh, you had Kambo yesterday, so you're fine. Don't eat today." So you really didn't know what you were getting into? No, not, not even a little bit. Now, was this all kind of the same... It was a ca- like the same retreat? There's Kambo and then the- No. This was... The, the reason there was Kambo was because we were already with a friend, and the friend was the assistant to the Aya- Aya- Okay Shaman guy. Just so they... My husband, at the time, had planned the whole thing. It was like, "Okay, Friday, we're gonna do Kambo with Perla. Saturday, we're gonna do ayahuasca. Sunday morning, we're gonna do bufo."

I'm like, "That sounds like a lot." That's a lot in one weekend. That's a lot. Like, I don't know. But like, okay, I'll take it day by day. I mean, that's a lot in six months. It's a lot. That's a lot of work, and I had done bufo once before, the y- a year and a half prior. Okay, so you, you were familiar with that one. I was familiar with that one. Okay. But the idea of, like, doing two medicines, like I don't know, man. Mm-hmm. That sounds- Especially when you got rocked by Aya. Yeah. So it was just very grueling. It was physically hard, but it was mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, like, I can't even think of the right word. Just taxing. Just a lot. Insane. And so a little bit about me, like I really battle between my intuitive and my logical. So sometimes I lo- I love them both, I value them both, but there are definitely times where, like, my intuitive

brain will say something, and my logical brain's like, "Well, that's crap." It's like, "Ah, you're just making that up." Right. And so in ceremonies, I still struggle with that, like that's just your brain on drugs. But there's a moment where I had this realization where in everyday life, because I'm so sensitive, I have the ability to protect myself and... But I do it so intuitively that I don't, sometimes don't even realize that I am protecting myself. So now I'm in this ceremony with 20 other people who are just fighting their own demons, screaming their hearts out, and I am under the influence, so I have no ability to protect myself 'cause I have not learned how to protect myself while under the influence. Of medicine. So I just remember laying there, like, feeling like my body can't move, and just being glued to the ground, and hearing everyone scream and cry around me. And it was just like this really dark feeling, as if everyone's

demons were coming t- at me, and I felt, like, just psychologically attacked for six hours straight, and there was nothing I could do about it. That was always the most challenging thing for me in ayahuasca, 'cause you're in this room or this maloca or wherever, wherever it's at. Mm-hmm. You know, and there's 15 to 20 other people in the room with you. Yeah. Everybody going through their own experience, and even though, you know, maybe what they were going through is beautiful- Mm-hmm when you're under the influence and people are crying and screaming or hysterically laughing- Mm-hmm it can, it, it can pull you out of your experience and almost kind of pull you into- Mm-hmm what feels like a madhouse. Absolutely. And at that point, I just felt like it wasn't well-contained. Like, even though I didn't know the facilitator very well, I just had this sense that he had no idea what he was doing. Mm-hmm. Like, he had no business holding space for

20 people. Mm-hmm. And I came to that conclusion afterwards, 'cause in the moment I'm just like, "What is this?" Um, but so I got through that, and the next morning I was just feeling absolutely dog awful. I'm like, "There is no way I am sitting with more medicine." Like, "F you for even suggesting." So I was, like, hiding out in a different area on the camp while listening to everyone go through insane processes. I'm like, "I don't, I don't even wanna be over there," I'm like, "I'm just gonna hang out over here."

And so that was, like, Sunday morning, and so by Sunday night, the woman, my, uh, ex's friend, she's like, "Do you wanna sit? I, like, I feel like you should do another kumbo. Do you wanna sit in the morning?" I'm like, "Actually, yeah, that sounds like a good idea. That feels right." And so Monday morning, it was a solo experience. It was just her and I. And she decided to do my spine, and I think we did six dots, which was the same as I got the few days before, prior. Significant. Significant. But, you know, I don't know what I don't know. Mm-hmm. So I just... This is normal. And, you know, two liters of water- Mm-hmm six dots up the spine. Good grief. And but I did have this, like, moment. This was, like, my biggest combo moment in the six years I've been working with it, where I'm crying and crying and crying, and I just have this vision. And even though, like,

combo isn't necessarily a visionary medicine, I did have this moment of clarity vision as if I was burning, but not like a flame, but as if an... I was burning like an incense, and I could just, uh, see in my mind all of this smoke smoldering off of me with that heat. And there was just this inner knowing that all of that smoke coming off of me was everything I absorbed from other people, not just from the rough ceremony, but throughout my life. And that ma-made me even more emotional. So now I'm, like, having this big emotional purge. I'm feeling all of this come off of me. Then I'm vomiting in my bucket, and then I'm crying some more. And it was in that moment where I had this... I could... Again, my logical brain's like, "This sounds silly," but I know it's not, wherein, like, combo's like, "I need you to share this. I'm, I'm choosing you. It's up to you if you do

it or not, but I'm choosing you to share this, 'cause you can do this, and this is... You need to share it with people." And it was, there was no hesitation in my mind, like, "Okay, I'm gonna do it." And that was that. Wow. And so about... I had a hard time finding, um, different training opportunities. I only came across two, and I chose the second one about a year later. And their method, again, was one and a half liters of water, three to seven dots, um, but with the idea that the purge is the point. And so there was a lot of purge chasing. Like the purge is the cleanse or the detox. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like that is what you need. But at the same time, they actually did introduce the concept of, uh, changing patterns. And even though I didn't resonate with the my- mythology... Methodology? Methodology. Yeah. Methodology. Thanks. I think that's

of how they did that. It did... was really good for me because it brought me into how I do Kombu now, where I, what I call somatic Kombu, or I'm using Kombu as a somatic tool. And so I trained with them September of 2021, and I went through this whole process of following w- how I was taught, like, yeah, 'cause they're, this is how I was taught, so I'm gonna do this. And then I was doing that for a year or so. I'm like, "You know, this feels really aggressive. Not everyone's having a g- good time. Not everyone's getting what they want out of this." And I'm... You get so many different body types too, right? Mm-hmm.

A guy that weighs 200-plus pounds and a woman that weighs a buck 15, they don't need the same water guidelines. Mm-hmm. Like, this is silly. Um, 'cause, you know, I regularly get people that couldn't handle that much water, for good reason, right? Like, like, "I can't drink that," like, you know what? That's okay. And it just made me really curious again to what is the reason behind this. I wanna understand this more. Because that was, that was, for the longest time, that was pretty much standard protocol. Yeah. One and a half liters to two liters of water- Mm-hmm pre-Kambo. Mm-hmm. And then because it was looked at as a cleanse or a detox- Yeah it was, uh, heavily encouraged to- Okay to purge. Yeah. And if you couldn't get there on your own- Yeah then to assist you, but essentially, the, the session wasn't over until the purge is out. That was totally it. And then on the other side of that, like, well, bec-

there is this fear of the hyponatremia, so like, oh, well, you gave your client this much water, now you have to make them purge 'cause you can't let them leave with that much water. Mm-hmm. And so it was, like, a little bit diabolical on both ends of it. And let's, let's talk about, for those that don't know what hyponatremia is, what's your understanding of that? Hyponatremia is when there's so much water it flushes the sodium out of your cells. Mm-hmm. And you just I call it internal drowning. Mm-hmm. And it's catastrophic. It can be, anyway. It doesn't always, but- Why is it so catastrophic- Mm-hmm to have the sodium flushed out of the body, especially during a Kambo session? Especially during- Because, I mean, it's not like vomiting in itself- Yeah, yeah is inherently dangerous. Well, w- you're risking severe brain swelling. Okay. No one needs that. And now when you get that s- level of seve- severe brain swelling, now you're at risk for

a grand mal seizure. Now you're at risk for a coma. And when your brain swells that significantly and you don't have the sodium to balance out that water retention- There's real- it's really hard to come back from that. If you do not get that sodium back in the body in a significant amount of time, th- there's, it's really hard to bring someone back from that. Exactly. So what's happening essentially is, you know, we drink a lot of water. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we're usually in a fasted state of about, usually a minimum of 10 to 12 hours- Right t- typically. And then so we're in a fasted state. We're already a bit depleted. We're consuming a lot of water, but with Campbell, you know, Campbell's known as a purgative medicine, so there's lots of vomiting and potentially diarrhea, which also contributes to the loss of electrolytes- Yeah in the body. So if you flush enough of that sodium out, then the, the cells can, will start

to absorb that water, s- specifically the brain cells, which is what causes that swelling- Yeah of the brain. So as a Campbell practitioner working with this water, knowing that's a risk, it's, it's a balance. Yeah. It's finding a balance, one that y- you feel safe- Yeah and comfortable doing. Yeah. And I think that's als- honestly the scariest part of the job is when, when someone's not truthful- Mm-hmm on what their sodium levels are, what if they're doing, like we've talked about and before, if they're doing the ayahuasca diet, which is typically a no sodium diet. And I have had, had someone not tell me- Mm-hmm that they were on a ayahuasca diet, and they had a, what I interpret as a absence sh- seizure within five, six minutes- Mm-hmm of dots on. And you know, like take it out, figure it out, and like, "Okay, what's going on?" This, that, and the other. "How are you feeling?" And it goes to show that even though

kambo is an incredibly safe medicine- Mm as long as certain protocols are followed. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And so, like before coming to Tribal Detox, seeing like all these really intense processes, I'm like, "Is this necessary?" Mm. Do they... Do I have to chase this purge? Do they need to drink this much water? Do I need to give them this much kambo if I'm chasing this purge? I have a lot of questions, and I didn't know where to turn to, so I was really just trial and error a lot of the time. Like, okay, well, this person weighs around this much. I know that their cardio health or their activity level's around this much. I'm gonna see if I can adjust accordingly. Mm. So I did a lot of that, and tried to work both intuitively and tried to find as much information as I could at the same time. Now, before we get too far into it, you know, you're kind of starting out on

your kambo practice. Mm. Yeah. But you know, we've also gotten into Ayurveda- Mm-hmm and massage- Mm-hmm and all these different modalities. What, what's your background? Do you come from a religious background? Like- I come... Yeah. What is family starting to think about what Elizabeth is doing these days? Oh. Oh, Elizabeth, what is she up to these days? Because, you know, I have found that there are a lot of people interested in working with medicine. They, and they go through the trainings, and they learn how to facilitate these medicines, but the critics, especially if they come from a pretty religious family that don't- Mm quite understand, you know, Amazonian medicine, that, that crit- that criticism from the family- Yeah can squash a practitioner's dreams before they even begin. Oh, you are absolutely correct. I did kind of play with that balance a little bit. So one thing that was on my side, so my background being growing up in a very high- Strictly almost controlling, um,

LDS Mormon household. Mm-hmm. And this is my personal experience. It doesn't mean everyone else has this experience with this, um, religious community. Um, so I'm the sixth of eight kids. I have a big family. And to me, you know, because I'm the sixth, that was normal. And like people are like, "What's it like having that many siblings?" Like, I don't know. They're all gone by the time I grew up. Like, it was life. I don't know. Never a dull mo- I was an aunt by the time I was 11 years old. Right. Like, professional auntie since '98. And still going, honestly. I have like 31, 32 nieces and nephews now. Some of them have children of their own. Um, but my parents are also unique in the way that they didn't com- really trust the medical system. They didn't really trust the education system. So I was homeschooled. Again, people are like, "Oh, she's religious. She's homeschooled. Weirdo over there." Um, and then my parents

were self-taught and self-studied, um, herbalists in a way. Um, but they ne- didn't have any formal education. And I was a pretty sick kid growing up. Um, I would end up being a lot more sick a lot more often than the rest of my siblings, and no one really could figure out why. But the- we didn't go to the doctor. We'd like... They just did all different American herbalism. Um, they followed, uh, I can't remember his name at the moment. Anyway, um, they'd give me herbs. But because I was sick so often, in my mind I'm like, "They don't know what they're doing. This is, does not work, clearly, 'cause I'm not getting better." And so I had this period in my like, in my early 20s where I tried going the Western medic- medical route to help me get better. And I had chronic tonsillitis, and I had gut issues, and I had chronic constipation. I had chronic depression. I'm like, "Something needs to

change. Like, I do not wanna live this way anymore." And I was seeing this nurse practitioner, and like, "I'm so sick of chronic tonsillitis. I'm using all of my PTO days as sick days. Like, I'm getting s- I'm having tonsillitis anywhere from three to eight times in a year." It was just absolutely awful. And she's like, "Well, I can send you to the specialist, but he's just gonna send you back here." I'm like, "I'll take my chances. Please." And so I go to the ENT, and he looks at me for like, seriously two seconds. He's like, "Yeah, I can take them out. When do you want it?" I'm like, "Uh, yesterday." Mm. So at 25, I had a tonsillectomy. Um, and so because I have this background, going back to your question, of my parents doing all this herbal medicine and then trying to come to Western medicine and that not working for me, I'm like, okay, it kind of fueled that passion, that curiosity.

I'm like, "How can I find the answers?" So I'm studying the body. I'm studying nutrition. I'm studying the mind. I'm s- I'm like, "But this all comes..." I'm intuitive. Like, I know this all comes back to spiritual health as well. And so I was in and out of the church a lot in my 20s, and my family at this point knows Elizabeth does what she wants. Mm-hmm. We're just gonna... She'll, she'll come back. She'll come back. And I did for a long time. And it was actually, oof, my first BUFO session March of 2019, um, full blast off and having no idea what I'm saying yes to, being scared shitless. Like, I, you know, was in the bathroom a lot right before session. And I go in, and after, after that session- Te- tell us about it. Tell us about that experience to the best of your ability- Okay to describe it. To the best of my ability, um, they were worried 'cause they knew

I don't do anything. Like, I was pretty clean cut. I did a little bit of cannabis here and there. And they're like, "Okay, we're gonna give her..." They didn't tell me any of this ahead of time. They told me after. They're like, "We're gonna give her a lower dose." I don't know what that means. They never gave me any numbers. But I remember taking the medicine, and they're of the methodology of covering your mouth and nose, which is a little bit traumatic. Mm-hmm. Like, that's the last thing you remember, is someone's covering my mouth and nose as they're laying me down. Like, okay. And I didn't go fully in. And the reason, to help the listeners understand- Yes right, so, you know, bufo, because bufo is a substance that has to be vaporized- Mm-hmm so it takes a few moments, right? Mm-hmm. So it's a big inhale, and sometimes when you're, you know, when we've taken the pipe, we've inhaled the medicine and we're starting

to lay back, because it's such a big inhale and we're starting to drift, that medicine, we can see it start to escape the nose a little bit. Sure. Start to... So it's just, it's kinda, kinda like the- the practitioner's way of- Like- "No, don't waste anything." Yeah, don't waste it. Keep it in the body. Yeah. Let it get in the lungs. Let it get in the blood. Hit that brain. Um, but they don't tell you that ahead of time. Mm-mm. Well, they did. They're like, "We're gonna cover your mouth and nose," I'm like, "Okay." Well, my, uh, partner at the time, he went first. Oh, my goodness.

So, you know, like he and I had had these big discussions. He really wanted me to do this, and because of my religious background, I'm like, "I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it." He's like, "Just be open to it. Just try it." I'm like, "I'll go with you." I'm like, "Fine." And I was honestly saying yes to appease him, 'cause I was tired of the conversation. Not the way to go into things. In case you don't know. So we go, and it's just the two of us. It's not like a group or anything. He goes first, and I, I remember just thinking, like, "He's being possessed." I'm like, "He's going through an exorcism. What the heck am I doing here?" "How do I get out of here?" It was terrifying. And then his friend and her partner, they're like, "He's fine. This is his process. He does this every time," and they're cool as a cucumber. I'm like, "Oh, my goodness. What

do I do?" Oh, my goodness. Because you're starting to wonder, "Is this what I'm in for?" Yeah. Because what he's going through doesn't look like a good time. It doesn't. Like, he's not screaming or yelling, but he's, he's a swimmer. Mm-hmm. And he's, like, doing really big breathwork, and he's just moving all over the place. And, you know, everyone's like, "Yeah," trying to contain him, like, "He's fine. This is his method." I'm like, "Oh, my goodness, what do I do?" It was scary. It was really scary, especially coming from nothing, a no understanding of psychedelics whatsoever. But at the same time, I did have this sense that I didn't realize. It was more of, like, a hindsight thing. I did have a sense that it was medicine. Mm-hmm. This wasn't recreational, and I never would have put myself in a space where... I, I had no interest in trying something for fun. Like, I didn't enjoy being drunk the few times I did have alcohol.

I'm like, "I'm..." Like, this is... I would drink because my friends were when I was, like, 20. And bufo's definitely not one of those that are, is done for fun. Mm-hmm. Definitely not. I, I don't think I've had anybody ever come to me and go, "Man, Jace, I just can't stop smoking bufo." Not at all. But again, didn't have a whole lot of understanding. Nah. But there was something in me that I'm like, "Okay, this is medicinal. This isn't a fun process." And then he came out of it, and they're like, "You can sit with him." And so I'm like, "Okay." Like deer in headlights. I'm like, "I don't know. I don't know. I don't know about anything. I don't know." But I'm sitting with him, and he came back a lot faster. He told me he came back a lot faster than he normally does because I was there, and he was worried about me. And he's like... Well, I'm just like, "You take

your time. No rush." And so I had this moment where after he settled, I go in the bathroom, and I just have this conversation with myself. I'm like, "You cannot, you cannot do this if you don't want to. Like, you cannot do this for him. You cannot do this for anyone else. If you're gonna do this, you have to do it 'cause you want to." And I was like Just sweating. I'm like, "Do I wanna do this? Is this the right choice for me?" And I really, really struggled with that just, like, I don't know how long I was in that bathroom. They were probably worried about me. And I'm finally like, "You know what? I feel like I should do this, and it's gonna be for me, and it's gonna be not for anyone else, and I'm just gonna go for it." And so I go, and they give me the medicine. They lay me back and do the whole thing, and I just

feel my body so heavy. I cannot move it, but I'm not gone. I'm still aware at the same time, and I remember kinda, like, laughing to myself, like feeling kinda giggly a little bit but then trying to muster up all the strength 'cause I just felt a strong desire to communicate with them where I was at. And I just mustered up. I'm like, "I can feel you all staring at me." And then they all... I hear them all giggle, and they're like, "We're gonna give you some more." I'm like, "Uh, there's no way. There's no way. Like, you told me how I'm supposed to breathe so I can get the medicine. I cannot control that right now." They're like, "It's okay. We're just gonna try." And they, like, had to sit me up, and they then did it, and we went back in. And I remember them s- they do that countdown from 10, and I remember 10, nine, eight. Zoom, and

I'm gone. And it w- definitely was a struggle 'cause I have this moment where like, "Well, now we're dying. You did it." Mm-hmm. "Peace out, girl." Most people aren't used to dissolving into the universe- Yeah casually over 15 seconds. Like, I barely made it down two seconds- Mm and I'm outta there. And it was, what I can remember of it, 'cause a lot, I know a lot happened, but I, at this point I can't remember all the details. But there was like this speckly almost, um, kaleidoscope zooming out. Zooming out of a kaleidoscope and getting it, getting blacker and blacker and blacker and blacker. And that's when like what I interpret now as my ego saying, "You're dead. You're gone. You're not coming back to this." And then until it got to this point where I was just in this black abyss, and it was so indescribably peaceful. I had no conception of what, who Elizabeth was. I had no identity. I had no conception

of the humanness or what a human body was. I was just like this blank energy in black nothingness, and it was so peaceful. I just wanted to stay there in the ocean of energy for eternity. That's all I wanted to do. Just complete ego dissolution. Oh, it was the most delicious thing in the world. There's no pain. There's no suffering. It was perfect. And again, I know that there's a lot more details to that, but that's like the big thing I remember. And then it came time to come back into my body. I'm like, "No, I don't wanna do that." They're like, "No, you gotta go. You gotta go back." I'm like, "I don't want to." And it was a big struggle. And I remember it was physically painful to come back into my body. It was- And that- that's usually the hard part- Yeah with bufo for a lot of pe- Like the, you know, the blasting off, I mean, it's a few seconds

of fear. Mm-hmm. Certainly. Yeah. You know what I mean? But once you cross over, you're there. You're just in that bliss, right? Yeah. But it's landing back after going behind the curtain and seeing what all this really is- Mm and then landing back into the body. It's a lot. It's a lot. And again, no prep beforehand. Um, no. I mean, even if they did try to explain and try to prep me, I don't think it would've worked- There's no words honestly. I mean, really the only thing you can really do is, is try to help people understand the concept of surrender. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And maybe prep for the integration afterwards. Mm-hmm. But for the experience itself- Mm-hmm if you can't describe it, it's really hard because it's, it's just an experience that we don't have the language for. It doesn't exist- Mm in our human language. That- You know? It's something so cosmic that it can only be experienced, not described. That is

so true, so accurate. But again, I, I know myself. I can be a little strong-headed, so e- even if they had tried to prep me, I don't know how good it would've done, like, I would've done. Like, I was, I was pretty set in my ideas- Mm-hmm of what I understood as life after death. I'm like, "No," like, I have this religious background. This was my dad's one and only hobby, was church doctrine and church history. I know everything there is to know about the afterlife. Girl, you don't know what you don't know. So did this kind of start to influence or maybe change your perception of God? 1,000%. 1,000%. And yeah, coming back was painful. Um, and I remember hearing myself crying, like deep, deep heart crying. But at the same time, having, like, being a little bit concerned and scared about what's going on, knowing I'm back in my body, but I don't... I'm not fully back in my body. I'm, it's more

of an awareness of it. I'm aware of my body at that point, and knowing my body's going through this big em- emotional release. I'm like, "What just happened?" And then because there was no integration afterwards, and because it was such a big process, again, it's not a path I would choose for someone else, but it was necessary for me- Um, I was in a deep depressive episode for at least a week after that, if not longer. And that was really hard to manage and hard to navigate. What do you think that was? I think I was not ready for an ego death. Mm-hmm. And-- But that was the way they served. They're like, "The whole point of bufo is to have this ego death," similar to the combo. The whole point of the combo is to chase this purge or this detox, and that's just not how I would do it for someone. It's not how I do it for myself anymore. It's not a

path I choose for anyone else. It's so jarring to the nervous system. It can cause more trauma, even if you're trying to get rid of trauma, that, like, are we even doing any good at this point? Like, if we can't integrate the experience, what's the point of doing it? And so I w- I, I had a hard time with all of that. So that was March of twenty nineteen. Get through that, trying to get through school, trying to get through a tumultu- tumultuous relationship. Then we g- come back to summer of twenty twenty, do the combo, do the aya, and then a week after the aya, we're like, "Okay, cool, we're gonna do our third combo." And that was actually a really beautiful experience for me. I had-- It was very spiritual. It was very in tune with my body. And then my partner and I were supposed to do bufo that afternoon, same day, which would have been my second sitting. They're like, "Well,

I definitely wasn't gonna sit after aya." They're like, "Okay, you can do it the week after." And so again, my partner goes first, and, you know, he has this big experience. And at that point, I've seen it before. I'm not scared of it anymore, and I just-- I get to help assist, take care of him. And then I go. And again, I have no idea what that dose is, but I know it was way more than what I should have had. Because I take it, and I hear 10, nine, eight. I think I got to about seven at that point, and then I start the zoom out, and I don't have any memory. I had a complete whiteout, so I don't have any memory from the time I st- hear them start counting until I start that in and out process of coming back into my body. You know, that's, that's not unusual with big doses of bufo. And honestly,

I, I think they're even harder to integrate. Yeah. Because you go up and you come down. You don't remember. You know something big happened, like you went somewhere, but you can't piece it together. Mm-hmm. Which can kinda leave you with this just uncertainty. Yeah. We- were you experiencing anything like that? Dude. Yeah. I ended up, um... So they told me later, like, I had been screaming really intensely the entire time. I was moving, swimming all over the place, and I actually had flung myself over and face-planted the tile floor. I ended up getting a concussion. And that's the thing, too. When you have no memory of what your body did when- Yeah you were gone, and you've either seen a video or people are telling you about it, and it, it feels like, it almost feels intrusive. Yeah. It's like this amnesia of something that happened to my body that I can't remember. Mm-hmm. I can totally see that. Like, I didn't, I didn't hate

it, surprisingly. Mm-hmm. Um, but I see that for other people. Mm-hmm. Because, uh, obviously my experience is not how other people are gonna interpret, interpret that experience if they had it, right? But for me There was this moment c- in that in and out where you're aware of your body, but you don't have control of it, and you're just like, "Well, this is surrender. I'm just gonna have to roll along for this ride." But I had this sensation, and it sounds really scary, but it was actually really beautiful for me, where as if my ribcage was being torn open and this blackness, what I interpreted actually as bats for whatever reason, was just shooting out of my chest. But I knew it was big, un- like, n-not serving me energy. I don't know how you wanna describe that, whether it was emotional grief and anger, whether it was negative energy. I don't care how someone interprets that, but I know that's how I sensed it

in that moment. And so it was both physically and emotionally and spiritually painful all at the same time, and that was really hard. Um, and integrating that was really hard, and again, I went into a deep depressive episode for almost a week after because, like, something really big happened. I physically feel better, but I don't know what I'm supposed to do with this. I don't know what changes I'm supposed to make. I don't know what I learned from this. And it was just really hard to navigate. I'm like, "Okay. Well, I guess I dropped twenty pounds, but what does that mean for my life?" And so that was very confusing. However, in that second sitting, I had again Bufo say, "You're gonna have to serve this if you want to, but I want you to. However, you're not gonna do it right away. You're gonna wait until you find the right person to learn from and the right moment to learn it." And which actually

felt really good 'cause then it felt like I didn't have to chase it. Like, "Okay, it's gonna come to me when it comes to me." And then combine that with all these other things in i- my life I was going with, with all these other... with the first Bufo experience, and gen- over time, it was- The way I learned about the afterlife is so not it. Uh-huh. What they think the afterlife is, is so not it. Like growing up- Yeah what you learned in the church. Yeah. Yeah. And I also, like, had this moment where I was both, like, laughing internally, and this is, like, a few months after, laughing about the whole thing, but also, like, super frustrated 'cause there was always this conversation, this belief like, "Don't do drugs. They're gonna take you away from the Spirit. They're gonna take you away from the church." I'm like, "You guys are so right for all the wrong reasons." You know, it's funny, a couple

Mormons came to the... I was out working in the yard the, the other day. Mm-hmm. And they come down the street, missionaries, and, uh, you know, "Hey, can we talk to you about Jesus?" And I was like, "Yeah." "Well, we believe here at the church..." I said, "I have a church." They go, "Yeah?" I said, "The Church of Amphibian Arts." They're like, "Okay." I said, "In fact, if you want to meet God, I can go, I can take you in the backyard and I can introduce you." And, uh, you know, and they kinda asked a little bit about it, and I explained it. And they were like, "Well, I think we're actually gonna go on up the road." And I was like, "All right. Well, y'all wanna meet God, y'all come back." Oh, that's hilarious. And you know, like, it's these young kids- Mm-hmm out there doing that work. And they're the sweetest things in the world. I had to be 19, 20 years old,

yeah. Right? Like, that's what they are. They're anywhere from, like, 18 to early 20s. Like, they're just babies. Mm-hmm. Of course, when I was a kid, I thought they were super mature and adults. And now that I'm 39, I'm like, "They're just babies." Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. And they're so sweet. Like, I'm... I don't have bad feelings about other church members at all. No, of course not. And the thing is, you know, when it comes to church, it's not like we're bagging on Mormons. No. But, like, I grew up Southern Baptist. Mm. And there's Southern Baptist, and then there's Southern Baptist. Right. Which are two completely different things, you know? And it's, it's just through navigating all the different, you know, teachings and institutional religion- Mm-hmm that, you know, that just leaves a lot of questions. For sure. It does. And because my dad was such a scholar, I thought he gave me all the answers that other people were struggling with. Mm. And then

I went through this whole other journey. I'm like, "Oh, I figured it out for myself, and that's okay. And people don't have to agree with me, and that's okay." Mm. Like, it's all good. So it was very, like, combining massage therapy with the Ayurveda, with nutrition, with, uh, spiritual yogic practices and this- And now this different understanding of the afterlife. Exactly. And then combining that. And it was, it was... all felt very meant to be, even though I didn't understand the ins and outs of it, that it felt, like, s- right. I had this feeling like, "No, this is good. This is okay. I don't understand it, and that's okay." Did it kinda, did it kinda feel like everything was pulling you to... Like, it was all working together- Yeah to pull you to a certain place? Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm like, "Well, I didn't study col- uh, psychology in college," but at the same time I'm still studying the mind. And I'm getting to know

people, and getting to know the ins and outs of the human experience. And that was really my deep desire, was that understanding of the human experience. And what I didn't understand when I was in college was it all came back to trying to understand why I hated to be here. I hated it. I s- h- I started off with suicidal fantasy, and then eventually that came to suicidal ideation. And then I started making plans. And then at the d- then it... something would shift a little, just enough to where the p- plan wouldn't follow through. But it was definitely that cycle. It came back again, and again, and again. And it was really hard. And I'm the... hardheaded enough to not really seek help. I'm, "I can figure it out myself. I'm smart. I can do it." And so trying to learn all of these things about the human experience, the body, the mind, the spirit, all of it, came from this deep desire of

understanding of like, why do I not like being here so much? I always had this idea and this inner knowing that there was afterlife. Even if I didn't have a religious background, I feel like that still would've been the case because it was, it wasn't something I was taught even though it was something I was taught, it was an inner knowing, like I just knew. I'm like, "If this is not the place, this is not the place I wanna be, I do not wanna be in this earth realm. This place sucks. Can I go home, please?" And that was the conversation I had time and time again. Like, "I just wanna go home."

And over time and over my life, it was this understanding like this human life, this human experience is like boarding school for your soul. You will get to go home eventually. So I've had the same conversations with God throughout my life of, "Can I go yet?" "No, not yet." "Can I go yet?" "No, not yet." I'm like, "I don't care what you say, I'm gonna do it anyway." I'm like, "Well, you can, that's a choice, but don't do it. I don't want you to." And so I've struggled with that my whole life. So this passion of understanding this human experience like, "Does it have to be awful my entire life?" Yes, I do have moments of joy, but that doesn't mean I'm enjoying the whole thing. Hmm. And so that's where a lot of this passion and understanding for everything came from, and then it just kinda snowballed into the different medicines and understanding the synergetic, um, relationship between the body, mind, and spirit on

different levels. And from an really old understandings, like I didn't w- just wanna learn the c- modern understandings of it, I wanted to know like, "Okay, if this science is Ayurveda, it's been around for 5,000 years, what have they known? If this is still effective, they've gotta known something. If yoga's been around for 5,000 plus years, they've gotta known something if it's still effective." And so having that, going into indigenous medicines like Kambo and Bufo, it felt pr- like it felt like it fell into place. Mm-hmm. Like people around the world have understood things for a long time. Maybe there's something I can pick up from this. And so I just kinda put it all together, and I could see how all of these modalities meshed really well together, how you can have the information of Ayurveda and Kambo together even though they're completely different cultures. And how you can have, um, other like Aya and Bufo and mushrooms and everything can work with yoga

and Ayurveda, and even Chinese medicine. And I know there's another woman like does, she does German medicine, and another person I know who does Russian medicine. But they all come together. They all have big similarities because these people that have been... I'm not the first one to have these questions. It's been happening for millennia, and people have found their own ways of working through it, and I wanted to understand that So from there, going, and then eventually it came with my religious deconstruction, and being like, "Okay, well, actually let me do a deeper dive into this. Is this really what I wanna be doing with my life?" And realizing, and this is gonna be really weird if any of my family hears this, realizing that all, not all of it, but there is a s- chunk of my depression that came from being a part of something I didn't actually believe in, that didn't actually resonate, that I was trying so hard to force into

my life because I was afraid of it being true and me messing myself up. So how, how are your views beginning to change on God, on the afterlife? That's such a great question. My views at this point are I absolutely believe in God source, and I understand how every culture around the world has come up with their own particular understandings, and I think there's a lot of truth in all of them and a lot of not truth in them at the same time because being human means error. And there's a lot of human influence in institutionalized religions. Absolutely. Or organized religion. Organized religion. Like, all those organized religions come with human error and a human interpretation of something they actually might not know a whole lot about. And with that comes the human condition of control and power and greed and all that that comes with it. And so h- giving myself a really honest time, which I thought I had always done, and then

realizing I didn't, a really honest time of, like, what resonates in your heart? Not just your mind, not what you want to be true, 'cause I really, I did want the Mormon religion to be true because it was familiar. It was my culture. And so, like, I really want this to be true. I don't want it to be correct and then God being mad at me later. Like, I don't want my family to feel like I'm the outsider. I don't wanna be the outcast. I want this to be true so bad, and I put my honest effort into believing it and following every principle. And time and time again, there's a saying within the ex-Mormon community, "My shelf broke,"

where there's this idea that if you don't understand something, it means it's supposed to be challenging your faith, and this is an opportunity for you to practice faith. If I don't understand it, it's not important for me to know. God will tell me when it's important for me to know. So I'm gonna put it on my shelf. And then eventually you put something on your shelf, and then you put another part on your shelf, then you put another part on your shelf until the shelf breaks. And there's like, the whole religion is on my shelf 'cause it's not resonating, and my shelf broke.

And then it came to this point where I don't have to make this true for me if it's not true for me And that took such a weight off my back. And I d- there isn't a specific day, time when it happened. It was, like, incremental over time. Um, but it happened, and I'm like, "Wow, life just got a little bit easier, and I don't have to feel guilty about wanting to separate from my husband, and I don't have to feel guilty about this divorce, and I don't have to feel guilty about not believing the same things my entire family believes." It's almost like, uh, a freedom to be you- Yeah rather than to be the you influenced by the church, worrying about, you know, upsetting or disappointing everyone. Mm-hmm. And it... Like, there is a part of me that's always been... My mom used to say, "You're my most independent child." And I would snap back and go, "Don't say it like it's a

bad thing." 'Cause I've always had that huge independence. I'm like, "I'm gonna do it how I wanna do it." I'm like, "Why do I have to do everything the way everyone else is doing it?" And because I've had that personality, my family has really just, over time, didn't happen right away, but over time allowed that to just happen. But to be honest, I've never actually had this conversation with my family. I'm, I'm... It's not... I'm, I'm not opposed to having the conversation and explaining where I'm at religiously and spiritually, but they're not asking, and I'm not gonna make an announcement. You know, and it's interesting. Like, the longer, you know- Mm-hmm you work with things like Bufo and start to get- Mm-hmm this understanding of God and the universe and, you know, the afterlife... You know, because it's... I have conversations with religious people. And when I say, "For me, it's not the whole story," it's... I can in the same breath say, "For you,

it may be true." Hmm. And that can be confusing to people- Hmm because w- it's true or it's not true. But w- but once you start to have a deeper understanding of these things, for you, that might be true for you. That might- Yeah be your journey here or something you're supposed to learn from that or take- Yeah you know, take from that. But you, you can't deny in your own being if there's something more to explore. Yeah, absolutely. I totally resonate with that. And at this point, I think, I think I might have told a couple of siblings. I'm like, "By the way, in case you were curious, it's not that I'm not going to church. It's that I'm not in the community anymore. This is not who I am. This is not what I do and what I believe." And I think one of my sisters, she's like, "Yeah, I'm aware." I'm like, "All right, cool." And that was that. Um, but no

one else in my family has really asked about it, and I'm okay with that, and if they wanna ask about it, I'm okay with that. Um, I know a lot of other Mormons or ex-Mormons do have this struggle, that there's this idea that- Um, they're gonna be shunned or something. It's not a typical practice. It's a common practice, but it's not like a re- in the structure of the religion practice. And I feel really heartbroken for when that does happen to people, and luckily for me, that's not been my experience, even for the people that know I'm no longer in it. Um, they're-- I'm still family. They're still my family. We still love each other. Nothing really has changed in that aspect at, um, at all, which has been really nice

Um, but yeah, like getting into the medicine, they really don't know exactly what I do. Um, and for those that have questions, we'll talk about it, but I- I'm not the one to like, "You have to do this." Mm-hmm. "You have to do what I'm doing. I found the most amazing thing. Everyone has to be doing." Like, that's not my vibe. I can see how I can be like that when I was in my 20s about massage therapy, about nutrition, like, "Oh my gosh, do you know this chemical and this thing? You don't wanna eat this." And I was very passionate about sharing what I know 'cause that is something to do. I get really excited about what I've learned. I get really excited about sharing information with others 'cause I'm passionate about it. I, I'd say, like, I'm getting nerdy on this. I wanna tell everyone about it. But when it comes to that spiritual process, I... Because of my own experiences, I'm like,

"Everyone has to come to this at their own time. This is not something you can convince someone to do. They have to want to. I'm here to answer questions. I'm here to talk about it, but I can't make that decision for you, and I can't recommend it." If, for those, if that makes sense to anyone else. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll, I'll, I will almost try to discourage people sometimes. Mm. Because it's like life changes after this. Mm. So you need to make sure that that's something you're really ready for. Yeah. So you're moving into your medicine journey. You're starting to work with people, with Kombu initially. Mm. What, what kind of things are you seeing? I'm seeing such intense processes that they never wanna do it again, and it broke my heart to be the, a part of the source of that. Mm-hmm. Like, and I didn't know how to navigate it, and I didn't wanna force anyone to have conversations about it 'cause

I really wanted to respect that space and those boundaries and those feelings, but I really wanted to understand how I could change that and how I could be better because I knew what a powerful medicine it... And that wasn't the case for everyone. I had some people who had the most biggest breakthroughs, and they would come back even for the more intense sessions. I've had people, oh my goodness, just like release years and years of sexual trauma that they didn't know how to navigate before, that they didn't realize how much it was impacting them. Um, and they're like, "Kombu ch..." They would tell me all the time, "Kombu changed my life. It changed my life. I am such a different person." Um, I had a really beautiful opportunity to serve, uh, one of my nieces and one of my nephews who are siblings some years ago, and I served them those bigger doses. And like, not so big, but like, you know, one and a

half liters of water. I don't think I- they finished all their water 'cause they were teenagers. Just kinda like the old protocol. Yeah, the old protocol. Mm-hmm. Like, not dangerous. Cl- They were fine. Mm-hmm. I wasn't gonna let anything happen to them. But it's just- It's that idea that suffering is optional. Like, you don't get a gold star for suffering. It's gonna be intense, but it doesn't have to feel like you're fighting the rip current in the ocean 'Cause, and yeah, and it's important to say that because a lot of people think if a little suffering is good, more is better. Yeah. And that's not necessarily the case. Mm-hmm. And yeah, so, so- Or we think we have to earn the healing. Right. You know, we have to- Right pay our penance. Absolutely, and I'm definitely was in that group in the beginning. I'm like, um, from a lot of different patterns. Like, oh, I used to think I had to earn fun. I used

to think I had to earn healing. I'm like, "I have, I have to suffer. If it hurts, it's working," type of thing, right? And so I had great experiences with Kambo. I loved Kambo, and I, my clients had great experiences. My niece and nephew, oh, I had to... That was one of my hardest sessions as a practitioner, as a facilitator, 'cause I had... I knew what I had to do. I had to be their facilitator, not their auntie, and that was beautiful and really challenging. And to watch them go th- through these big emotional processes and not coddle them and not stop their suffering because I knew it was, what was gon- that was... It changed me as a person, and I n- I knew it was going to ahead of time. I knew it was gonna be hard for me, and I was also at the same time so excited to have the opportunity, that they felt called to this medicine to try it.

And to watch them just yell out, scream their grief, and scream their anger was so transformative. I'm like, I was so proud of them, and by the end of it, I'm like, "Okay, we're done. We're done. Okay, now I'm gonna start crying, and I'm gonna hold you. I'm gonna hug you." I'm still gonna emotional thinking about it 'cause it was amazing. And I felt, and I feel this way with each session, but especially with family that you care so much about, I felt an immense amount of gratitude that I had that opportunity to hold that space for them. And it was not lost on me that that was a privilege. And I feel that way with every session. It is such a privilege to have the opportunity to hold space for someone in their darkest moments because that's a level of vulnerability you don't want other people to see you at, and it's really hard for people to let you see them there. And then

it's a big responsibility, so people have that trust in you that you're gonna hold them in that level of vulnerability and not exploit them. And not one time was that ever, that level was ever lost on me, and it... I get emotional almost every session to see someone going through it and trusting me because it's huge Yeah, it's, it's the, you know, the biggest fear with cancer, as we talk about, is the fear of the, of the unknown. Mm-hmm. That's why I say everybody that walks through my door to be served, I have such admiration and respect for because they, they've gone on YouTube, they've watched the videos, and some of them can look pretty terrifying. Mm-hmm. You know, and they, they've heard the horror stories. And through all of that, still they know something is there for you. Yeah. And to be chosen to be someone's facilitator, uh-

You know, it's an honor. It's n- it's not just a client, it's an honor. Yeah. Like, you are being chosen to carry someone through quite potentially their most vulnerable moments, as you've said. Yeah. And so at this point I was in this, "Well, I'm gonna... I'm g- I'm personally making the decision to adjust and be a little gentle. I'm gonna use a little less water, and I'm gonna not chase that purge, and just see what happens." And working with people with that, because I, I had really interesting responses with people where they had the most transformative experience of their life, to where it was so intense they never came back. And like I n- I need to figure out a, a middle ground here. And that's kinda scary to start changing up your practice- It is a little bit. 'Cause especially in the medicine community, it can get a little culty. It really can. You know? And when you start mixing things up a little

bit, kinda doing things a little bit different, like the whole community, it's, it's a very interesting love and light, cutthroat community. Absolutely. It really is. And I w- didn't, I didn't feel like I had anyone to talk to about it, 'cause this was just my experience, and the people I did know were doing the, from the same training, doing the same practices, and every once in a while I'd ask them, like, "Well, what do you think of this? Have you tried it this way?" They're like, "Nah. Meh. I don't know." And some of them were like, "Yeah, I do a little less water," or, "Yeah, I do a little less kunbo," but there wasn't a whole lot of conversation, that I could find anyway, or maybe I wasn't searching enough. I started following you on Instagram. I had no idea who you are, and I was like, oh, Tribal Lead Dogs, they do kunbo. And the logical part of me is gonna be a l-

really skeptical because the medicine community can be really culty- and really weird. I get really skeptical about following other people. But like, well, he's saying some really interesting things. They really resonate. I'm gonna... So I go, "I'll hit that follow button and just see what happens." And it was like time again you'd say something like, "Yeah, absolutely." And again, like, "This guy's rad. I like this guy." And then it was just like, I don't remember how long, maybe a year I was following you, and then you posted something about bufo. And it was one of those really inconspicuous, like, you don't know if it's bufo if you don't know what's bufo. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, "Oh. Well, m- I'm just, I'm just gonna send him a message." Like, "Hey, do you train in bufo?" And then you hit that response of like, "Yes, but because of unfortunate circumstances in the past we only take our own members." I'm like, "Oh. Well, I've been a kunbo

practitioner for this many years. I trained under these people, this organization." And then you're like, "I'm sorry, it's just like a hard regulation at this point." I'm like, "All right. Well, what do I got to lose?" Mm. So I think it was maybe a f- And like I was looking at your online schedule. I'm like, "Okay. Well, I wanna do it sooner than later, but this date doesn't work, this doesn't work." I'm like, "Okay." And so I saw that it was, oh, that was 2024. I'm like, "I saw that your October class is full, but if you get a drop, can I join?" And you messaged me back immediately like, "I actually just got someone canceled out. I have one spot left. Do you want it?" I'm like, "Yes, sign me up immediately." And then we just went through there. You know what? I, I, I've had that conversation with a lot of people just looking for bufo training. And, you know, we're, we're careful

not to come off as gatekeeping. Mm-hmm. It, it has nothing to do with that, but it is such a powerful medicine, you know. And it's, it's done so, you know, we established a church, the Church of Amphibian Arts, and the bufo training's conducted through that church. And, you know, we realized because, you know, the, the bufo, we call it a bufo graduation at the end of kambo training, which is just an opportunity for people to sit with bufo to kind of make everything come together. But, you know, I tell people when we work with kambo, once you learn that medicine, you can manipulate the dose of that medicine or that kambo to make that medicine, to make that ceremony look anything like you want it to look like. All right? Right. With bufo, once they take the pipe and lay back, you gotta be ready for anything. It's such a big energy. Such a big energy. You know? And

And the way we teach is, it's a little different than how it's commonly practiced out there. It's a little bit more of a therapeutic approach. But it's still very intense, and to take somebody on, like we have to know you, and you kinda have to know us, right? To, to make it really a synergistic, uh, relationship in that bufo space. And, um, so it, it, it was just like, "Yeah, I, I know you can serve Kambo. I know you're probably an excellent Kambo practitioner." "However, I don't know you." Right. Right. "And, uh, we just need to see how we all get along-" Right before, before we, you know, d- go to that next level together." Totally. And honestly, when someone has boundaries like that, it makes me like them more. Mm. So when you said no after I explained it, I'm like, "Oh, now I actually really wanna go." Like, oh,

I respect this guy more. This is cool. It was funny, we had a, we had a class, you know, a few classes ago, and it's this, uh, Ukrainian girl out of New York. And when we did the introductions, you know, in front of everybody, she was like, "Yeah, I originally asked if I could come to your bufo training, and you rejected me, so." So I, I didn't reject you. There are just steps. You're like, "There's, there's steps in place. There's a protocol in place for a reason." Uh. Like, we have a method to the madness. But I think it had been several months, or at least three months between the time I asked you about bufo to the time I actually enrolled in the Kambo course. 'Cause that was around April or May of '24. And, you know, then a lot of other things in my life happened. Um, and I get to Combo School in October of '24, and, you know, I, I see

you coming up the escalator in the airport, and as soon as I saw you, I'm like, "I already know this guy's got perfect energy." Freaking love this man. I don't even know him. I'm like, "I'm total- I'm gonna be best friends with him." Which I'm sure everyone feels when they meet you. Like, if you don't know Jason, for me, I can tell the integrity of a person when I meet them, more or less. Like, sometimes it takes a few meetings of the person, but with you, it was immediate. Like, I think it was also because of the way you present yourself on social media without any explanation. You're just very honest, and then you came in with those boundaries about Bufo School and Combo School, and then when I saw you, I'm like, "This guy's rad. I like him." Yeah, right on. Yeah. And then you take me downstairs. I meet your wife. I'm like, "She's adorable. Oh my gosh." Get in the car with

her. We're on a four-hour drive, and she's now making conversation. There's two other women in the car. She's like, "So, what brings you to Combo School?" And I'm like, "Do I tell them? Do I not? Do they remember the conversation? Do they have any idea who I am?" And I also put this, so much pressure on myself about like, okay, I'm already a Combo practitioner. Everyone's gonna judge me about whether I'm being snobby, whether I'm being a know-it-all, or whether I'm doing it right, and so I put this immense pressure on myself for this course. And so we're in the car, and she's asking. I'm like, "Well, actually, um, I'm here because Bufo School, and I had this conversation with Jason," and she just goes silent. I'm like,

"Oh no, I said the wrong thing." Well, just a little context to that story is we had a very challenging Bufo class that previous September, and it was, uh, you know, we're still dialing in the vetting process, and we, we, you know, and it, because of that school, we'd realized that it's not just enough just to take home from the organization 'ca- because Bufo is such a... It c- it's one- I- it's definitely a love and light medicine in the right hands. It can be a brainwashing tool in the wrong ones. Mm. You know? I see a lot of people use it for those purposes. And, uh, even with some of the, you know, people that were coming through the Kambó schools that we, we were seeing them do the things that we taught them not to do. Mm. You know, if you're, if you're not steady in your being, Bufo can take you away from yourself. Right. And it was such a hard class.

Kelly and I were both like, "I think we're done. I, I don't think we're going to do this anymore." It, it's, uh, it, it's really hard to get the right person in, you know, to really dial this in. And then, uh, and I'd forgot about you. Right. And then we sent- And I think, and I had forgot to tell Kelly about you. Oh. So when you ended up in the car with Kelly and you're like, "I'm coming to Bufo school," she's like, "Great." And so, you know, that was a Sunday. We start class Monday morning, we do intros, and that was a big class. There was 10 of us. Did it feel weird getting ready to go through this again? Like, oh, okay. A little bit. A little bit. Um, but also I think, and I do, I have this pattern that I'm really trying to work on, where normally I'm not one to care about celebrities. I'm not... I'm pretty authentic how I show

up. But when I meet someone I end up really admiring, there's a part of me that kind of regresses to a childlike, and I just want to be liked so badly that I put all this pressure on myself to perform and be the best version for that person to like me. And I totally recognized how I did that during that school, where I'm like, "Okay, I don't wanna be the know-it-all. I don't want people to think I'm a bitch." And there was this moment in the intro on Monday morning after everyone does their thing, where you said, and I just felt like, not in a bad way, but I'm like, "Oh, this is maybe directed at a couple other people," 'cause there were some, we had some wild cards in that class. Mm-hmm. But like, I felt like this definitely part of it was directed at me, um, where you're like, "Well, everyone comes from different backgrounds. We are teaching a very specific way. I

don't care how you've learned before." Like, you did it in a very, like, charismatic manner, but no, like, the message was like- I just asked you to be a student. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. I get it." So, oh my gosh, this is not necessarily important to the story, but to me it was a big part of it, where I'm a sea level baby. I do not do well in this level of altitude. We were at like, what? 88? Yeah. We're sitting at about 8,800 over here in Creede. I, and I have what I call princess sinuses. I have very sensitive sinuses. So you're like, "Okay, we're all gonna practice rep A and we're gonna do four sets." I'm like, "This is gonna mess me up." And I don't wanna say no- 'cause I'm here to perform.

I'm like, I already know, like, this is so bad for my body. I just did it anyway. And I had a really bad reaction. And then the very next day we do what I call Jason's little hike. The up and over, which just kicks all our butts. And that threw me over the edge where the, the very next morning, Wednesday morning, which was the self-serve day, I was in a full-blown sinus infection, altitude sickness situation. It was bad. And I just was beating myself up so much. I'm like, "I'm trying to make a good impression, and I just look like this weak little girl." It was completely ridiculous. But get through the whole combo school. And the whole time I'm also recognizing like, "Yeah, this is familiar, this is familiar. I know this, I know this." But then recognizing the differences and getting to know your method and how you came up with it, and how much you studied combo, and how much you studied

the peptides and how they work in the body, and all it like captivated me. I'm like, "Yes, this is what I've been looking for without knowing how to find it." And so even though my intention for coming here was Bufo school, it ended up being so much bigger because I found information I was looking for that I didn't know how to find. And I found a community and a family that I absolutely loved because as we know, the spiritual medicine community, they get that cultiness and they... There's a lot of judgment in there. Not everyone. There's great people there, but from my experience, I was having a really hard time finding people in the medicine spiritual community that were grounded and that weren't so out there. It's pretty wild out there. It's pretty wild out there. Like, there's gotta be this grounded spiritual people because not to pat myself on the back, that's how I consider myself. I'm a grounded spiritual person. I, I like

logic, I like modern medicine, and I like all the other things too, and I think they all work together. And for me, it's been hard for me to find people in that same wavelength So coming here felt so much bigger to my path than I even realized when I got here. And then got through it all, Bufo graduation day, and then getting... Or the day before, talking with Kelly and Julie the day before, and learning how you guys surf Bufo. I'm like, "This is fascinating. Lower doses, no blast-off, still great results?" I'm like, "All right, tickle me curious."

So go in, and then I was also nervous because it's Bufo, but also nervous 'cause I know in the past I've had really bad, big reactions, and I was, again, judging myself on scaring the other people there. And I go, and yeah, I did a lot of yelling and a lot of screaming, but it wasn't so jarring to my nervous system. Um, I think I can even remember the dose. I think Julie gave it to me. I think it was like at a 22 or 23- Mm-hmm which was just what I needed. And I released all of this. I knew what it was when it was happening, which was also really cool, 'cause I wa- hadn't been able to do that in the past, where I'm like, I knew it was anger. I knew it was grief. I knew it was all of these things I've just been holding onto from all these other life experiences that were finally just, like, giving my body permission

to just let it all go without any inhibition, and it felt so good. It felt so good, and just knowing, like, I get to do this with people that are gonna keep me safe, and aren't... have their own agenda for my spiritual process, and just allow me to be, but also at the same time give me framework on how to navigate, and that was completely different th- from what I was used to, and that was huge for me. Mm. And then at that course, you also had that moment where you're like, "If anyone wants to be an instructor, let me know," and this little light went off. I'm like, "You wanna be an instructor?" I'm like, "No, I don't." I have never wanted to be an instructor. I love teaching. I love sharing. But like, I don't wanna teach Kambo And the little voice like, "No, you do, because you wanna do it with them." I'm like, "Okay. Well, let me think about it." And

I remember telling you, like, "I don't wanna waste anyone's time. I feel like I might, but let me sit on it longer." And then it just kept coming back, and it kept coming back. I'm like, "You know what? I'm gonna pursue this and see what happens." And so we, you know, we figured it out. I was gonna assistant teach in the summer. I was gonna go do the Bufo school right after, and that all worked out beautifully. And then during Bufo school, oh, and I surprised myself in Bufo school with how nervous I was through the first half of it, because I still had, like, even though I know we're doing smaller doses, why do I have all this fear about surrendering? I'm not gonna blast off in the b- at least not in the beginning. But there was still just, like, all this nervousness, which was a beautiful learning experience for me, how I have to keep coming back to the same lessons, right?

Like, you don't conquer the lesson of surrender like, at all. Hmm. You have to keep coming back to that. Yeah. It's a continual process. It is. And continuing, like, okay, if you say you trust the medicine, you have another opportunity to trust and try, and you have another opportunity to trust and try. Uh, you know, it's funny. We say... The word trust, when we say it, it's just a sound that comes out of our mouth. You know what I mean? We sound like, "I trust the medicine." Mm-hmm. But when you're in the grips of Bufo, trust becomes a different thing. It really does. And it's like I, I'm really wanting to trust you right now, but this is a lot.

And it was, all that day we're out in the backyard, and we're like, "Okay, this is our first time experimenting serving someone on these really baby doses." But at that time, I was still pretty sensitive, so that 10 milligrams was like, "Oh my gosh, where are my feet?" Um, but it was overall, like, amazing. And then I had one moment, I can't remember whatever day it was, let's say it was in the middle of the week, where I felt like, "Okay. I'm finally ready. I am ready to go in. Even with these therapeutic doses, I'm ready to not fight it." And I sit there, and I take the medicine, and I honestly, I don't know what happened, whether it was whether I didn't take it all or whether it was just the medicine knew I needed a learning experience, whatever. I do not care at this point, because I was underwhelmed, which was exactly what I needed. Mm-hmm. I was so ready to go in,

and I didn't. And at that moment, it was like, "Yeah, you needed to be underwhelmed to really get past that final part- Mm-hmm of really letting go." Funny how Bufo teaches. It's so, like, it was so perfect. That's why I always say dose doesn't matter unless you're trying to force it. Right. It's so true. And so then after that, I got a second chance to sit that day. And it was so easy. It was so easy to let go, and it had never been that easy to let go before. And it was so beautiful and delicious, and like... And there was just so much love, like that heart bursting, tears running down your face love. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is, this is it. This is why I'm here. This is why Bufo told me to." And Bufo told me to wait, not just because of Bufo, but because I needed to be part of this community, and I needed to do Bufo this

way, and I needed to build the relationship this way. And it really all came completely full circle. It was so wild. Mm. What an experience. What an experience. So you go home. That's about a year ago. Mm-hmm. What's this last year been like? Amazing. I In my personal history, my depression can often coincide with, um, the winter blues. Now, California hasn't really had a winter this year, but or and however way you wanna phrase it, the integration I had after coming home, personal integration. So I think it was like a week or two after I got home, Kelly's like reached out like, "Okay, want to do an integration?" I'm like, "Yeah, absolutely." She's like, "How are you doing?" Like, "I have never been better." I have so much happiness in my entire being, in my heart, in my mind, in my spirit. Like I don't have a care in the world. Is my life perfect? Far from it. Is there big responsibilities and a lot

of stress and chaos? Absolutely. But I'm not stressed, and that was life-changing. And I started serving pretty immediately and holding space for people and allowing them to experience it. Yeah. So this last year you've really kind of been on the path of full-blown medicine woman. Yeah. And hon- I have never felt more in my element than when I'm in the bufo space. In these 39 years of not a whole lot for some people, but you know, it's mine. Feels like home. It feels like home. And it's like that... It comes back to that same feeling from my past where like I know home is not here, it's on the other side. So when I'm in the bufo space, I am absolutely home, and I know how to navigate it, and I know how to help other people through it because it's so indescribably

familiar to me. Like I don't have to do a lot of, "Okay, I'm kinda trying here and I'm trying to hold onto it." I'm like, "No, it's e- it's complete ease." So now with the work that you're doing, you know, the, the massage therapy, the Ayurveda combined with the amphibian modalities, what, what are we seeing in people? W- um, not everyone's ready to do all the things and which is totally okay. And I get teased a lot by, uh, friends and colleagues that I offer too much in my business and my practice, but I'm like e- explain it to them like they all work synergetically together. And yeah, it's, and it's a repertoire of tools. Mm-hmm. You know, and it's just knowing what tool for- Exactly what moment. So I, what I didn't mention, I'm also a Reiki master, so I'm working the energy field. I'm working with the medicines. I'm working with ancient un- nutrition and, uh, medicine understanding Ayurveda and all the things,

and reading the body as I work on it. And so I'm giving people the options. Like, do you want to work on your body first? Do you wanna work on your nutrition and gut health first? Do you wanna work on your spiritual relationship first? What is the path you want to start off of? And what resonates the most with you? And over time, if you want to dive into the other things, it's available. And some people do, and some people don't, and some people do all of them, some people do a few of them. But my biggest goal is to help people feel empowered in who they are, feel empowered in their relationship with their body. Because another thing that really drives me in what I do

Is what I see in spiritual community and in medicine is a lot of bypassing. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, oh, it's the experience. Sit in the ceremony. The ceremony is the medicine. Like, no it's not. It's beautiful. They are beautiful tools, but unless you take that information and apply it to your life, it's just an experience. And if you are constantly trying to be in the spiritual realm and you're not focused on your body, what are you doing here? You're a human being. You have to be here, which is something I learned through a lot of trial and error. And then I see other people trying to pi- bypass the body. I'm like, you... My goal is to help you build that re- spiritual relationship, but I can't do that until I help you build a relationship with your body. Mm-hmm. And that's huge for me. You know, it's... So many people get lost in the cosmos, but really when you work with these medicines and you-

Mm-hmm you know, you cultivate a relationship, and then you realize, it's like, "Wait, I, I came here to be human." Yeah. "I came here to embrace the human experience," you know? And, uh, a- and then one day when you get a little deeper into the understanding, you realize that the human experience is the spiritual experience. Yeah. That's what it is. And I was fighting, kicking, and screaming a lot of the way of that until I got there. I'm like, "Well, it's gonna suck sometimes, and that's okay." And I didn't like that answer. I had to work a lot with that answer. But there's this one moment I had where I'm, like, yelling at God. One of my most spiritual experiences is when I'm not on medicine. It's when I'm in the depths of hell of life- Mm that I'm not on medicine. Mm-hmm. I... It's like 2:00 in the morning. I'm s- in my car screaming at God because I don't wanna go inside to

my husband 'cause we just are having another blowout. I'm like, "Is... What is the meaning of this? If You're all-knowing, this is the best You got? Like, this place sucks." And the answer came back that, "Yeah, life is suffering." I'm like, "Well, that's bullshit." And it's like, "No, but it's fleeting. The bad will never last. It's always gonna pass. The good will never last, and that's always gonna pass, so you have to really live in the moment, Elizabeth." Mm. "You have to enjoy that joy while it's there, and you have to sit in the sucky parts of it when it's there, and it's all gonna pass. It's all fleeting." And that was, like, my biggest lesson I think. I'm like, "Okay. Well, if I can just roll with the ebbs and flows of life, it's not so hard as when I'm fighting the current," right? And that was huge for me. And then applying that to bufo and applying that to my life at large.

And so this past year of that integration with all these other things, I'm like, "It's really not that big of a deal." No. No, it's not. Like, we're on a rock floating through nothingness. It's not that big. It's not that deep, guys. It's fine. So- We've gone on this path of service, and now you're looking at becoming an instructor. Mm. First of all, what did you think of the Tribal Detox instructor application? Um, it was intimidating at first. It was very intimidating. Um, and the book essays, I'm like, "Ah, shoot, okay, I can do this." And phenomenal books. I absolutely see the method behind it. I see your reasoning behind it, and I respect it. Doesn't mean I enjoyed it.

Do you feel like it helped prepared you better? Yes. Um, yes and no. I don't wanna say no, but, like, uh, one of the books was really great book, but it was a lot of st- I th- lot of stuff I already kinda knew. Mm-hmm. Like, I wasn't Even though I don't have formal teaching, I'm not new to teaching at the same time. I, I understand looking at people and like, okay, are you a kinesthetic learner, are you a visual learner, and like, and understanding meeting them where they're at. So it definitely was helpful in some regard. I love the peptide book, but you know, I get a little nerdy on that. Um, even if I don't have the complete understanding in that specific language, I still actually really enjoyed it and, um, the science-y parts of it, and then all the other personal questions which are fantastic. I'm like, "Okay." But I think the thing I struggled the most on the book essays, especially

on the, um, the first one, what's the name of that book? How to Win. How to Win. Um- How to Win Friends and Influence Others. Yes, that one. I was laughing with some friends as I was trying to write that one. I'm like, "I don't know how to use more words to say, 'Don't be a dick.'" Like, be kind to people. It's not that hard. Like, but no, I have to write like a two-page essay on how to not be an asshole. But overall, definitely good, and I'm glad you have it set up the way you do. So now that you're getting ready to step into that role, because again, this is something brand new- Mm-hmm how's it feel? Feels exciting. It feels full circle. Um, for those of you that have read The Alchemist, I was listening to the audiobook again not too long ago, and you know, it hits differently at different phases in your life. And at the end where it's like,

oh, basically, you know, he has to go through this giant process just to come back to the beginning to what he had, but he, he had to go through the process to understand the whole thing of why he had to come back to the beginning. And I had this light bulb moment, and like, I wanted to study psychology, and now I'm doing somatics, and now I'm doing Kombu, and now I'm doing Bufo. And I'm doing everything I wanted to do when I thought I wanted to study psychology, but I had to go through this whole circle and come back to it for me to be the person I need to be. And it's, it's really wild, and it feels surreal sometimes. Like, I'm like, "What am I doing here? How did I get here?" And but it, it, it all fits. It was all meant to be the way it was supposed to be and the way it happened. Excellent. I think you're gonna do

a great job. Thank you. I'm really excited. So we're getting ready to wrap it up. Mm-hmm. And, you know, one of the final questions I like to ask for anyone who facilitates is, what's one of the wildest or one of the most profound ceremonies that you've served? That I've served? Or that you've witnessed. Um, something that stuck with you. I will say that I participated in. Okay. Um, and this is gonna be an emo- emotional for me story. So I have a disclaimer for my people that the moment you commit to medicine is when it will start working in your life, not during the ceremony, not during the session, but the moment you commit to it on an energetic level. And that can frighten a lot of people. And, you know, I'm like, "Well, it's just part of it." And, you know, we go through it, and we walk it through it. But still when it happens to me, it can still be surprising.

So my ex and I, we had this very trauma-bonded, toxic relationship, and I really struggled. So many times I tried to end it, and for whatever reason, I just couldn't. And I judge myself a lot on that because I knew I was a strong person, and so if I was so strong, how come I couldn't get out of this? And I never asked for any help, to my own detriment. And my friend at one point reached out to me in, in the early May of 2024. So interesting, 'cause it was the same month I signed up for com- Tribal Detox. She's like, "Hey, I just found this ceremony. Do you wanna go with me? Peyote ceremony." I'm like, "Yeah, absolutely. Sign me up." I'm, like... And she's someone I, I, we work a lot, we co-, uh, work a lot, we facilitate together, and we went to school together. Like, we have a lovely relationship. So if she w- says she found a ceremony, I

trust her completely. Like, "Yes, absolutely. Sign me up." And the night before this ceremony, so we were gonna do the ceremony on a Saturday, Friday night, my partner and I get into the biggest fight, and it started because I'm like, "Hey, I know we've had this conversation a million times, but I really need us to take this communication break. This is what I need." And we got in a giant fight about it, and it was the first time I felt him really shift into a potentially dangerous part, where I didn't think he was gonna hurt me, but it just didn't feel energetically, physically safe, and I couldn't un-explain it. That moment where, you know, like, someone's eyes kinda glaze over, and they're just caught up in their own emotions. And it just got really, really, like, maybe not bad in s- some people's interpretations, but it was bad. It was giant, giant blow-up. And that was it. I needed something really, really... I needed it

to get worse for me to get out, and that happened Friday night. And then Saturday, my friend comes over to pick me up, and we go to the ceremony. And I, you know, I get myself in these situations where the ceremonies are all in Spanish, and I do not speak Spanish, but it's cool. It just happens again and again. It's fine. It ended up being the most powerful, transformative ceremony of my life. It was... Even if we didn't have peyote medicine there, the facilitation, the facilitation

of the fire, the music medicine was so powerful and but, you know, medicine still di- played its part. And there was this moment That I struggle speaking out loud because it's emotional and it's my logical brain fighting it, where I'm in the medicine, and even though I don't understand what's going on 'cause my friend and I somehow, we were supposed to sit next to each other and we got separated, so I have no interpretation. I just know there's this moment where like, "Well, you can only pray for yourself for so long. It's time to start praying for others." And so I started praying for my ex, for this man that I was trying to get away from, and I started praying for friends and family members. And before I even knew what I was saying, I s- started saying, "Let me release it. Give it to me and I'll release it." And I started doing this really big purging. And something I used to judge

a lot when I'd go to ceremonies, they're like, "We're gonna do limpias. We're gonna purge for you," and all this. I'm like, "That is crap." And there I was doing it, and re- feeling the reason he's the way he is, and giving it to the fire and getting it out of my body, and feeling the reason someone in my life that I'm very close to is suffering so much, and working through that. And like, maybe this isn't such crap because I did it. And it's come up in a ceremony again and again and again, but that was the first time I'm like, "Wow, this, my life has changed after this." There's been times where ceremonies have definitely changed my life, but that was the first one or the most significant one where I recognized it immediately. Like, I am a different person. I needed help to get this thing ended, to get this person out of my life, and I didn't know how to do

it, and the medicine did it for me. And I had such gratitude for how it helped me do that and h- how it taught me how I can help others on a deeper level, even if I didn't completely understand what that meant. And that was my most memorable, significant ceremony, which is also a really hard question, Jason. 'Cause they're all amazing. I know. I know. Thank you for sharing. It's beautiful. Thank you. Thanks for being here. You're welcome. I'm so excited for you to go out and teach Kambo school. Um, I, I think you're gonna do a phenomenal job. Thank you. That means a lot. So how can... Where you at? How can people find you? So my name's Elizabeth Dalton. I'm located in San Diego, California. Um, my Instagram is _surya, that's S-U-R-A... Oh, my gosh, can I spell it? S-U-R-Y-A Wellness, um, on Instagram. My website is San Diego... Oh, my gosh. Blanking.

www.suryawellnesssd.com. All right. We'll put it in the show notes, too. Okay. That sounds good. All right. Till next time. Thank you.